It's a shame hacker news has gotten this political as of late. They're likely going to have to go with the lock comments strategy much of reddit has to do, or just allow each thread to blow up into wild America hate like this.

6 less countries than the number one country, and you get these comments about how "the US hasn't been a sought after passport for years" when the US was number one just 6 years ago, and even now it's a better passport than 170 countries, with the ones you can't get into basically rubber stamps if you do apply.

And the full extent of it isn't obvious, because I've seen a lot of intensely political submissions get hundreds of upvotes flung at them before they're flagged within the hour. A lot of normally reasonable people have simply decided that they're cool with flamebait and chucking insults. And I'm not sure whether moderators can maintain a good intellectual environment when the userbase is willing to tolerate a bad one.

Yeah, "Rank Group" #7 but actual position 17, so not even in the top ten. I'd say "one of the most prized" should at least be in the top ten, if not in the top three, to actually be "most prized".

But since we don't agree on that, I guess agree to disagree.

Out of 200 odd passports you could have, top 10% is definitely a reasonable definition of most prized. Particularly when the difference is so insignificant.

The vehemence of your disagreement in the original post vastly exceeds what one would expect if you were merely stating that you don't think that one of the most prized should only mean top 10.

The US has 15 countries head of it. Most by 1 or 2 countries. Unless you specifically want to visit one of those 1 or 2 countries the difference is irrelevant. Compared to Sweden the US misses out on Vietnam and Turkey, but gains access to Mongolia.

These numbers could change at any time. So basing your passport decision on such a minute and frequently changing number is ridiculous.

By the way the US is actively working to develop a better relationship with Vietnam--my brother went there on a diplomatic/military relations visit a few years ago, and 90% of Vietnamese have a positive view of the US. It's very likely that sometime in the next year we gain Visa free access.

And we should not underestimate the amount of trouble US citizens have due to FATCA, etc.

In Europe, many banks and insurers will turn them down as customers.

Indeed, that even impacts French citizens who were born in the US but have never been there since then. And apparently it's a huge pain in the ass.

All countries with the same number of visa-free access get the same rank group in Henley index, so actual position is irrelevant.

If you check the webpage it shows South Korea above Germany, if you download the pdf on the webpage it shows Germany above South Korea. But in reality doesn't matter since it's a tie with both being in the same rank group.

Again, you and OP seem to be talking about 2 different time periods. What does the historical (OPs time frame) rather than the present (your time frame) look like in terms of passport position? What there a time since 1776 (or whenever passports became a thing) that the US passport was in the top 10?

> What there a time since 1776 (or whenever passports became a thing) that the US passport was in the top 10?

Yes in 2006 and 2014 it was #1. The numbers fluctuate every year because the difference between #1 and #20 is only 7 countries.

To add to this, most of the additional countries aren't really umm... worth traveling to, at least for most people. I compared against germany, and the additional countries are:

    Myanmar
    Pakistan
    Vietnam
    Venezuela
    Iran
    Turkey

I'm sure those countries have interesting places to go to and the people there are nice, but they're not exactly on the top of most tourists' list when it comes to destinations.

edit: not sure what the downvotes are about. maybe hn thinks that all countries are equal, and thinking otherwise is racist?

According to this list, Turkey ranks 6th in tourist destinations worldwide:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings#Most_vi...

I think the operative metric is how it would rank for US passport holders in a world where the us passport was entirely unrestricted. I.e. how much is the typical US passport holder losing out compared to their ideal preferences. I think the parent's point is accurate by that metric. I doubt that many Americans urgently desire to travel there compared to most other places. I would actually quibble more with Vietnam -- it seems like a fantastic tourist destination, similar in many respects to Thailand.

gruez said the countries on the list are “not worth travelling to“ and “not exactly on the top of most tourists’ list”, but if Turkey is the 6th most popular tourist destination in the world that’s obviously not true

>gruez said the countries on the list are “not worth travelling to“

correction: "most of the countries", and "at least for most people". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23977923

I agree that person's way of expressing their opinion was inelegant. But I'm trying to cut through to something true that they might have meant by what they said.

> not sure what the downvotes are about. maybe hn thinks that all countries are equal, and thinking otherwise is racist?

Downvotes are because you assumed certain countries are "not worth traveling to", when some of them consistently rank as fairly popular tourist destinations.

I said most of the countries, not all of them. In particular, Pakistan, Venezuela, Iran have "Reconsider Travel" or "Do Not Travel" on the state dept's website. Myanmar has "exercise caution" advisory, with certain regions having civil unrest.

> most of the additional countries aren't really umm... worth traveling to

> not sure what the downvotes are about. maybe hn thinks that all countries are equal, and thinking otherwise is racist?

You dismiss these countries as not worth traveling to, and seriously can't comprehend why you were downvoted? Wow some people just completely lack awareness.

Rudeness of such a statement aside, I've been to Vietnam and Turkey and they are fantastic countries. I would absolutely love to visit Myanmar and Iran as I've heard fantastic things. I've heard good things about Pakistan as well. Venezuela of course is unfortunately dangerous to travel to right now, but it is a beautiful country.

In any case, dismissing a country you know nothing about as "not worth traveling to" is rude and uncultured at best.

I'm not going to argue with most of that list but Vietnam is absolutely a growing tourist destination, with over 18 million international visitors in 2019[1] and nearly beating India in 2018[2].

It is particularly popular with Chinese visitors lately but also historically with the "Gap Year" backpackers from Europe who travel around Asia.

Incidentally it is a beautiful and incredibly friendly country and I highly recommend it.

[1] http7 s://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Vietnam#Tourism_statistics

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings

Turkey is a pretty popular tourist destination - good climate and one of the worlds most ancient civilizations.

> To add to this, most of the additional countries aren't really umm... worth traveling to, at least for most people.

This is a quite unfortunate attitude to have. Every country I've been to has something to offer, has helped me gain perspective and empathy with other people and has been "worth" traveling to.

I feel like you fixated on that part of the sentence and ignored the first part:

>I'm sure those countries have interesting places to go to and the people there are nice

The reality is that for most people, their time and money budgets are constrained, and they're optimizing for more than just "gaining perspective and empathy" (eg. they might just want to party/relax). As such, those countries are low on most people's list.

Pakistan was Condé Nast Traveller's best holiday destination for 2020.

Source: https://www.cntraveller.com/gallery/best-holiday-destination...

American here, I've been to a number of the countries on that list that you say are not "worth traveling to," along with many other countries that you think are probably worth traveling to. I've really enjoyed the ones to which I've traveled and plan to go back. I won't pile on with the top tourist destinations, but check out the other responses for those, I'm just providing an anecdotal response from a tech worker.

> edit: not sure what the downvotes are about. maybe hn thinks that all countries are equal, and thinking otherwise is racist?

Your edit is bad by the way and a gross mischaracterization.

>American here, I've been to a number of the countries on that list that you say are not "worth traveling to,"

>Your edit is bad by the way and a gross mischaracterization.

Ironically your comment is also a mischaracterization. I never claimed that all of the countries on the list weren't worth going to. In addition, in the edit I was posing a question rather than making a statement.

Vietnam and Turkey are not worthwhile? And then goes the cliché about Americans...

> they're not exactly on the top of most tourists' list

Turkey is the #6 most visited country in the world, and Vietnam is also a popular tourist destination (#27 on the first list I found).

I'd love to travel to Pasargadae and Persepolis in Iran and Çatalhöyük, Ḫattuša, and the Hagia Sophia in Turkey. In fact, I'm likely to travel to Turkey when this pandemic is over and Iran if relations ever improve to the point where my American passport doesn't paint a target on my back.

Maybe you should examine your assumptions.

Vietnam and Turkey are actually very nice.

Vietnam and Turkey has tons of tourism.

Turkey is a very popular destination for Danish people.

I, for one, would very much like to visit Venezuela and Vietnam.