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Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by DoreenMichele on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:58AM (#23973070)
Pointless blurb that won't get traction:

This is part of why I blog and run r/GigWorks and r/ClothingStartups: I figured out how to make money from the street while very ill.

This is solvable. We just aren't working on the right things.

We need to get people working again in a way that doesn't spread the virus. We need to work on resolving our housing supply issues. We've torn down a million SROs and not replaced them. We've largely zoned Missing Middle housing out of existence.

We collectively know how to create affordable market rate housing in walkable neighborhoods. We just basically choose not to in the US.

And now it's A Real Crisis, not "just a few losers with personal problems". We need to get our head out the sand and stop pretending we are too stupid to fix this, good god. We aren't too stupid. That's not the issue.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by newbie789 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:28AM (#23973250)
Sorry if I sound flippant but, well maybe I'm being flippant. Your idea of creating jobs is awesome and objectively laudable, but your post ignores the actual reality of millions of people becoming homeless for reasons out of their control very, very soon. Many people, even if they gained employment at the moment that you're reading this, will be carrying around their blankets and food outside of their former place of housing before the next pay period.

The scale of this issue is so incredibly large that it's kind of hard to understand unless you yourself have recently had to pack all your shit up and find a safe place to park for the night (assuming in this case you've got a car, which many do not).

I applaud your efforts to create more jobs, which WILL BE HELPFUL, but it's kind of akin to offering bandaids in the WW1 trenches. Useful! But not the solution.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by PopeDotNinja on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:29AM (#23973621)
I'm smart, hardworking, and educated. In 2009 I still ended up homeless. I couldn't find a job. It happens, and it can happen fast.
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by Overtonwindow on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:03AM (#23974115)
Was it because of decisions you made, or someone else?
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by PopeDotNinja on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:18AM (#23974186)
Bad luck, bad timing, and poor life choices. Figurative crippling student debt, literal crippling bike accident (2 broken arms) w/ associated disruptions, an economy in the shitter, and trying to start a startup with savings which didn’t take off before the money ran out.

The concept of being homeless didn’t really hit me until after I was homeless. I was sleeping on the floor of someone I just met, and at one point the room got a bit too small for the two of us and he kicked me out. I remember thinking to myself “where am I going to put my stuff tonight?” I could find a place to sleep, but I couldn’t necessarily find a place to sleep & not lose my stuff. I had a laptop that was my lifeline to searching for work, and without that I would have been royally jacked.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by vertis on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @07:35AM (#23974638)
Having spent a bunch of time helping homelessness charities in Australia, I now have a much better understanding of it. Enough to realise that I was technically homeless for a while when I was much younger (circa 2004), in the couch-surfing leaning on others kind of way.

Some of the associated problems are hard to deal with. Mentally you end up in a spin, spending all your mental energy on making money go far enough.

I had very unstable self-employed IT income. No ability to get a job because I'd dropped out of University (because of lack of money). As much as I was never at risk of sleeping rough, it was still a humbling experience.

I hadn't really made bad choices*. In hindsight there were many things that I could have done better, swallowing my pride and telling people being at least one. But hindsight is 20/20 and has the benefit of years of reflection.

The financial problems took years to resolve even when the income became more stable. It also became a puzzle. In order to get a house you have to have a bond, even finding a share house they want stable income (to be clear I wasn't making nothing it was just sporadic).

Not being aware of even where to ask for help is also problematic (There are websites now that help with this a little).

There are many reasons that people end up homeless, and to varying degrees. Society tends to lump them all together.

Drugs and mental illness may be issues that cause homelessness, but so are unstable finances and domestic violence.

Now, it will absolutely be COVID19 related, but that won't change the negative experience.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by okbuddy on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:25AM (#23974232)
what difference does it make? Why would they deserve to be homeless either way?
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by PopeDotNinja on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:35AM (#23974282)
I don’t mind answering questions.
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by DoreenMichele on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:31AM (#23973269)
Feel free to come up with better answers and outshine me and make me look like a fool. I will be happy to sit back and clap and say attaboy/girl!

In the meantime, I will continue to offer the spoonful of assistance I'm capable of offering while much of HN seems to pass the popcorn and watch the world burning like it's entertainment.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by robertlagrant on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:11AM (#23973844)
Yeah it's rather easier to say (with no evidence) "yes but that doesn't help 100 % of people" than to do something.

Well done for doing something, DoreenMichele.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by newbie789 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @08:55PM (#23982377)
Are you implying that I've somehow missed evidence that creating some jobs will keep millions of people from becoming homeless in the coming week and my post was simply to be a wet blanket?

As I said repeatedly in my post this is a good idea and I applaud her efforts. My point was (I'm sorry that this isn't clear) that the required changes need to be at a much larger scale than individuals creating jobs (unless it's organized at a... much larger scale).

While I am absolutely delighted to watch people do what they can, and encourage it wholeheartedly, I'm not all-in on the whole "job creators" idea as a panacea. Infact, if a person chooses to do ONLY the "job creation" thing and declines trying to address systemic issues, I'd also in some cases view them as eating popcorn while they watch the world burn with the added activity of patting themselves on the back.

If you were offended by my post, I apologize.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by sixstringtheory on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:35AM (#23973658)
You should probably have a look at DoreenMichele’s bio...

> I blog about a variety of topics, including things like homelessness and earning money from the street, something I have firsthand experience with.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by kennyadam on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:15AM (#23973163)
I'm not very comfortable with the answer to this problem being 'how to make homeless and sick people keep working'. America desperately needs better social security nets. (for example) Seeing Bezos net worth skyrocket by billions at the same time as millions of people losing their homes is absolutely disgusting.
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by watertom on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:21AM (#23973195)
If we didn’t have social security the country would be a dumpster fire right now.

Employer provided healthcare is the dumbest idea ever, it should be outlawed. I don’t care what it’s replaced with just as long as it’s gone.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by lotsofpulp on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:24AM (#23973222)
It’s not even employer provided healthcare. It’s employer subsidized health insurance with pre tax money with deductibles of $3k+ and out of pocket maximums of $7k to $13k. For employer chosen in network providers. For medicines from employer chosen formularies.
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by birdyrooster on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:09AM (#23973832)
And if you want mental health that will be $600/mo out of pocket even when you are in network with your expensive PPO plan.
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by RhysU on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:40AM (#23974300)
Social Security was created in 1935. How would you characterize the 159 American years preceding its creation ?
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by dredmorbius on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @07:25AM (#23974563)
For 86 of those years, ownership of another human being was the law of the land and for all of it rampant discrimination against any not of English Protestant ancestry was pervasive, so for a start there was that.

From 1862 to 1934, over 1.6 million homesteads were created through the Federal Government. For a filing fee of $18 (~$200--$500 in 2020), and five years sweat equity, a 21 year old male could claim 5-640 acres by building on and working it. Homesteading continued as a vastly reduced practice, though remaining an option, until 1976 in the lower 48 and Alaska until 1986. Open range provided for additional livilihood based on unowned acreage for ranchers, and mining stakes were prospected throughout the West. But by 1890, the notion that there was unsettled land for the taking had passed; the frontier was closed.

Not that this access was available to all; blacks, Native Americans (this was originally their land), Mexicans, Chinese, Catholics, and other non-Anglo groups were routinely denied rights to land.

Prior to 1860, unorganised squatting was common. A Free Soil movement, based in part of free or cheap land grants to white farmers also emerged.

Too at the time, wage labour was relatively uncommon -- many households were effectively their own businesses, most farmsteads, others practicing trades or professions. The rise of factories, railroads, steel mills, and coal mines gradually shifted this balance. But exposure to the money economy was often lower than now. Less upside perhaps, but also less systemic risk for most households.

Life expectencies were far lower than today: 49.3 years in 1901, 60.2 in 1934, 78.8 today. Pensions tended to be private, often failing, or support offered through multigenerational households (an idea whose time may be returning). Those living to old age often found themselves with no means of subsistence. Social Security had a solid basis in real lived pain.

There were frequent economic crises and panics.

You may have heard of the Joads. There's a truth behind that fiction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grapes_of_Wrath

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by DoreenMichele on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:18AM (#23973174)
A third of Americans not paying their rent or mortgage is not about sick and homeless people not working. It's about people not working due to lockdown.

A lot of those people not working are lower class. A lot of professional jobs just shifted to work from home.

We need that one third of Americans working. They need opportunity. They aren't getting it.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by fiblye on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:27AM (#23973612)
I think the point of the person you responded to is it's not really reasonable to tell the poor and homeless to pull themselves up by their bootstraps to work some low wage job during a pandemic. The problem is until the world manages to find a safe way through this problem, we should have a social safety net for those who can't work--and the thing standing in the way of getting there is a few people who have enough wealth to wholesale purchase a medium sized country if they wanted to.

Yes, there are some jobs that we do need done and are safe to do, but the labor bubble probably isn't big enough to accommodate all of those currently suffering.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by DoreenMichele on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:32AM (#23973638)
I spent nearly six years homeless. I don't qualify for disability, though I am disabled.

If I hadn't tried to establish an earned income, suicide would have been my only way out of my predicament. No one was going to rescue me.

With a third of people not working, we don't have the means to rescue everyone. The only way to fix this mess is to find ways to get people working again. There is no other real solution.

I get really tired of hearing pie in the sky talk of how people in lousy circumstances "shouldn't have to" do x, y or z. In practice, it winds up being a means to trap them there and give them no way out.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by namdnay on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:11AM (#23973847)
> With a third of people not working, we don't have the means to rescue everyone

Other countries seem to manage it. Bigger income taxes and use the money to help those who are out of work

I know it may seem like your actions are being criticised, I really don't think that's the case, we're all grateful for the efforts that you're making. But as someone else pointed out, you're walking through the trenches distributing band-aids. At the same time we need to ask ourselves why there are so many people in the trenches in the first place, whilst others are living in mansions 200 miles behind the front lines.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by kennyadam on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @07:26AM (#23974570)
Exactly. Arguing that there's no possible way to help everyone, while the top 1% are hoarding more and more is exactly how that same 1% want it.

Don't tax the job creators! Those billionaires earned every penny and didn't exploit anyone! We need to cut Amazon's taxes or they might not build another distribution center here that pays less than a living wage!

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by noelherrick on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:36AM (#23976235)
Just note that a lot of more socialist countries do not have clearly higher taxes, and they look much better financially when you factor in the ridiculously high price US folks pay for healthcare
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by fiblye on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @08:48AM (#23975123)
While your circumstances are unfortunate, this is about the government maintaining stability during a widespread disaster. If a fire burned down half the country, nobody would be saying “well those people should get back to work.” We’d have politicians rushing to win votes and support those afflicted by the disaster until we could come up with a good way to get life back to normal.

The current course America has now is to pretend things are normal during an ongoing disaster. It hasn’t been working. People working low wage jobs during this just because they’re struggling to pay rent are quite miserable—more so than before.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by zaarn on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @07:04AM (#23974438)
In other countries, people would have come to rescue you, the government would have been able to provide you with housing and enough money to live. Not everyone can work and those people deserve social net to be able to live comfortably.
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by imtringued on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:56AM (#23973771)
I think you are underestimating how large this problem is. It's one thing to not have a social security net when there are a "handful" (still too many) people whose luck betrayed them are on the streets. It's another when you have 11 million.

The problem is systemic. We are getting really close to the economic events that have happened during the Weimar Republic. We are going to see a huge increase in radicalization and instability if the article is correct. It won't end in a world war but it could get very violent.

People will start squatting in vacant buildings together. Groups that live together will create their own "pet" system of governance that will appear to solve these problems and then there will be rivalrous behavior among them like gangs fighting each other.

The best thing you can do is keep them busy with a job.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by namdnay on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:18AM (#23973882)
Why are they underestimating? If I understand their point, they are saying that the social security net in the USA needs to be reinforced, and band-aid measures like trying to find gig jobs for the homeless are not the real solution
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by kennyadam on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @07:22AM (#23974545)
Thank you, yes, this was exactly my point.
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by jacobush on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:02AM (#23973800)
Anything could end in world war, it's basically a constant struggle to avoid world war.
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by kiba on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:27AM (#23973244)
Cheaper and more plentiful housing would make social net easier to support.
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by robertlagrant on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:13AM (#23973854)
Cheaper and more plentiful energy, food, cars, everything would make it unnecessary. "Waving a magic wand" statements aren't very helpful.
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by dutch3000 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:32PM (#23983307)
totally agreed. the disparity is obscene.
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by uxcolumbo on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:25AM (#23973233)
This was solved before - in 1946 - so the US could do it again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_guarantee

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by prewett on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:30PM (#23980348)
I didn't know about this, interesting. I definitely like it better than UBI, at least you get something for your money, plus people get the dignity of working and being productive. This seems like it would be a good way of (re)training people for skills that have become obsolete.

I think a lot of the buildings and trails at the National Parks used the WPA (or similar) labor. People 90 years later are still benefiting.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by imtringued on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:11AM (#23973845)
I've always wondered why there is no job guarantee today. Without it the minimum wage is worthless because employers can just deny you a job. It doesn't increase your bargaining power. It's the opposite. If you don't have enough bargaining power you don't get a job in the first place. A job guarantee fixes that.
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by save_ferris on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @07:40AM (#23974675)
> We need to get people working again in a way that doesn't spread the virus.

Doing what, and how would you train them at scale?

> We need to work on resolving our housing supply issues. We've torn down a million SROs and not replaced them. We've largely zoned Missing Middle housing out of existence.

This is true, and is primarily the market’s fault. Developers focused on building higher margin luxury development and private equity started acquiring affordable private multi family en masse, renovating it and jacking up the prices.

> We collectively know how to create affordable market rate housing in walkable neighborhoods. We just basically choose not to in the US.

Again, this is a battle of competing interests. Those that control zoning and development aren’t as concerned about making cities walkable as those who actually live in them. Fewer and fewer people own the real estate they live in. You make it sound like laziness and that we “need to get our heads out of the sand.”

Unfortunately, the real estate market isn’t that simple, and the single largest influence in making waves in real estate is truckloads of money, plain and simple.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by himinlomax on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @09:15AM (#23975385)
You can always find a clever way to get a few people a job.

You can't do that for millions of people.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by onetimemanytime on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:21AM (#23973197)
>>We need to get people working again in a way that doesn't spread the virus. We need to work on resolving our housing supply issues. We've torn down a million SROs and not replaced them. We've largely zoned Missing Middle housing out of existence.

If "world peace" was mentioned too, I would have thought this was a Miss World winner's acceptance speech. "We need to..." sure we do, but since these are worldwide problems, maybe it isn't so easy as dropping a few blog links in a thread?

The world has lifted a lot of people from poverty but then new problems come up as standards increase.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by DoreenMichele on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:26AM (#23973238)
So, during WW2, before the internet when one world leader sent identical globes to two others so all three could be on the same page, they managed to do things effectively with global impact. But we can't because...?
Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by pjc50 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:22AM (#23974211)
As someone chewing their way through a WW2 history book (Neptune's Inferno) at the moment: I think the presence of external enemies mattered hugely. As it did during the cold war. Those in charge actually needed the effort and bodies of the public, for material war-fighting purposes. That drove nation-building solidarity efforts.

It also forced a certain amount of pragmatism; useless ideologues whose plans failed could get replaced rather than promoted, and at the middle ranks there was even the possibility of them getting themselves killed.

America in the present day is consumed with imaginary internal enemies, which is why it's deploying troops on the streets.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by hnarn on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:14AM (#23973863)
> Pointless blurb that won't get traction

From the Hacker News Guidelines:

> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

Re:11M households could be evicted over the next four months by DoreenMichele on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:17AM (#23973880)
I wasn't commenting about the voting on Hacker News. Traction is not about upvotes which I mostly don't really care about, contrary to what far too many people think.