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Re:Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwa... by lowdose on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:29AM (#23972275)
China also made the life of almost a billion Chines better by a factor of 50 in 30 years time.

> I frequently think that what is happening over there are the emulations of unethical experiments that the Western world would never be able to pull off.

Could you point to a specific year in the 20th century after WW II that no Western government was conducting an unethical experiment?

I seriously cannot think of an example so Im open to the fact you know more about my known unknowns.

Re:Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwa... by usui on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:57AM (#23972411)
> China also made the life of almost a billion Chines better by a factor of 50 in 30 years time.

I agree with you. This is why populations, no matter which population it is, are more likely to accept the government who has substantially increased the quality of life of the average citizen. This is a very hard position to disagree with, I think. Many citizens in the Western world also have had stable political systems despite the massive wrongdoings of their governments because for the most part, governments have not overstepped their bounds in comparison to the stability provided.

It's like having a goodness-to-shittiness ratio that each citizen subconsciously evaluates with an accompanying flowchart. The average citizen thinks to himself or herself: Is my government doing bad things? Yes. Is my government doing good things? Yes. Is the government doing enough bad things to make me care? No. If the answer is yes, then the next question is: Do I care enough to do something about it? Most of the time, the answer is no because society pushes me to remain being a busybody (job, life responsibilities, etc.) or I just don't care.

> Could you point to a specific year in the 20th century after WW II that no Western government was conducting an unethical experiment?

I could have phrased that better: All governments are capable and have a history of some kind of unethical experiment. I think that it is rarer that it is at this level of scale and with this level of technical sophistication. My thought was that generally, a Western government would not successfully pull off this prototype with neither the degree of success or extent.

I personally do not know what is happening at the granular level and I do not pretend to know. I wish I did, and for that matter, at any point in time there will be shady things going on that we do not know. Maybe we will learn in a few decades.

For the first time, we get to see what control through the digital lens of information technology looks like when combined with the capacity to enact state-sanctioned violence. It's like the cyberpunk genre, except privately-owned corporations do not yet have a significant capacity to use violence. Maybe we'll have the honor of seeing that by the end of this century.

On that note, the closest thing the USA has done in subjugating populations of citizens in a systematic way is the internment camps of Japanese Americans for no reason. They apologized 4 decades later. What good is an apology if you've been waiting for most of the victims to die anyway? Nonetheless, it still gained notoriety (eventually), and people still fought for recognition afterward.

Re:Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwa... by udue73uru on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:46AM (#23973363)
It seems like the interesting question is what happens after total authoritarianism. I know many here find the news out of China nightmarish but most of China is on the mainland and the mainland Chinese, while by no means flourishing in utopia, are pretty content on average compared to where they were in the past. This isn't meant to endorse China by any means but if the west is going to keep espousing the uplifting effects of democracy they're going to need some actual benefits to point to eventually since right now the main perk is friendlier trade relations. Latin American democracy is a joke because they love populists (no one actually studying them blames the intervention memes), the EU is rife with corruption and the U.S. is strong but you can be strong without being a democracy. So why should an aspiring African government, for example, strive for Democracy rather than persuing the Chinese model?
Re:Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwa... by pasabagi on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:13AM (#23973528)
Democracy developed in a world of totalitarian regimes, and mostly thrived because having officials vulnerable to election cuts down on corruption and incompetence while building government legitimacy and stability.

Totalitarian states tend to have a good run, where they have a good leader and energetic administration, then they become lethargic and dysfunctional, and because there's no mechanism to correct this, they start falling apart. (However, this can take centuries).

As an aside, I don't think the West has ever been particularly keen on democracy. I think Israel is the only democracy that has ever received substantial military and economic support. For dictatorships, this kind of support is basically routine (see Egypt, for a typical example).

Re:Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwa... by udue73uru on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:37AM (#23973667)
Those democracies didn't just emerge in spite of totalitarians though, they emerged because of them and the stability they established. Stable conditions historically lead to democracy but democracy in uncertain circumstances segues into stability much more rarely. Yes corruption is a problem for totalitarians but cracking down on corruption has been a growing aspect of the Chinese model for exactly that reason (whether or not they'll succeed is another matter but it's incorrect to automatically assume that a totalitarian state will be blind to the problem by default). Further, those democracies emerged in a wildly different power climate. A modernized military operating without any rules of engagement is not going to get overthrown by its people when over half the population is content.
Re:Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwa... by pasabagi on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @08:20AM (#23974940)
I think the precondition for stability is a strong civil society, and clear traditions about what constitutes legitimacy. Democracy fosters both of these. Dictatorship can foster both in the case of an 'enlightened despot', but it's often the case that the despot is incompetent, or worse.

If you look at transitions like the english civil war, or the french revolution, the clear precondition of revolution is not 'stability', as you think, but rather systemic dysfunction compounded by incompetent leadership. This kind of situation is one which democracies, in theory, should be much less vulnerable to.

Your ideas about the relative balance of power between state and people make some sense, I think, but they only matter when the threat is internal dissent. Most of the states in modern europe had a form of republicanism enforced on them by the French, who were able to invade all their neighbors because their republican government was (while very dysfunctional) more efficient and able to field talented officers and large armies.

A modernised military, moreover, consists of normal people - and they will also feel the disillusionment and apathy that grips really dysfunctional regimes. Saudi Arabia, for example, fields armies of terrible soldiers, using the most advanced weapons available.

China is an interesting and very weird state, because it's a very old civilization with deep roots, with very different basic ideas to the west, and they have turned marxism into a kind of managerial culture for an extremely capitalist society. I don't know if they will follow any of the typical patterns that totalitarian states follow. You can't really use the USSR as a point of comparison, because the USSR was a very European project, coming directly out of the enlightenment, and the western political tradition. Nor would Korea make sense, since they were colonized, and both North and South represent different reactions to colonial subjugation.

Re:Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwa... by biscotti on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:15PM (#23977276)
Well that's certainly one take. Charles had a bit of a complex sure but you have to understand the context of the time in that Cromwells foreign co-conspirators were demanding nothing less than his head.

The precondition of the English civil war in my opinion was more the funds that facilitated it promised by financiers from Amsterdam who ultimately went on to be granted charter to found the BoE.

As you know the result of this civil war was to wreck the fine castles, history and heritage of the English. Destroy many a dynasty and teach the Irish to hate the Brits for all eternity.

Issac D'Israeli produced a worthwhile read on Charles [1] if you'd like to know more on his character and quarry.

[1] https://archive.org/details/commentariesonli03disruoft/page/...

Re:Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwa... by biscotti on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:00PM (#23977122)
The democracy of Britain was foisted upon us by D'Israeli following his deposition of Robert Peel.

The teeth was taken from all monarchies, or BDFLs, after Bolsheviks were sent from Germany to murder Tsar Nicholas and his family in an act that ultimately condemned 66m Russians.

In my opinion if you want a stable democracy you enfranchise those who would look to a future beyond their own. e.g. one vote per family. If you franchise those who live for today with not a stake in the future democracy becomes not a viable form of governance.

Re:Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwa... by cafard on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:20PM (#23978998)
Benjamin Disraeli threw Peel off his horse? Who knew? And let me say that your orthography leads me to wonder what axes you have to grind.
Re:Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwa... by biscotti on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:28PM (#23979085)
No particular axe. I would just rather survive the Great Filter. Wouldn't you?
Re:Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwa... by powerapple on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:47AM (#23976979)
The logic is right. The Chinese citizens should think about if they are doing enough. If outsiders start to think if they have done enough for it, the Iraq situation happens. The problem is outsiders do not have enough information to make any decisions. Rather than making the decisions for the Chinese, why not let them sort themselves out. It is much suitable to deal with problem with your own government because you have more information and more saying as well.
Re:Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwa... by kv_hrishikesh on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:47AM (#23972370)
>Could you point to a specific year in the 20th century after WW II that no Western government was conducting an unethical experiment?

Are you justifying unethical experiments on Uighurs by the chinese government ?

Re:Xinjiang is prototype for fully totalitarian state: Taiwa... by microcolonel on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @07:33AM (#23974614)
The productive economy did that, the people. This is not the glowing leadership of the CCP, but a concession they made so as not to end up like North Korea.

As for unethical experiments, Mao's certainly top the charts.