Not defending google here - there have been some highly questionable product decisions over the years, but this is just silly.
Also how is outlook any better? Another public megacorp with even deeper government ties. As someone who grew up in the 90s i still remember Microsoft as more successful and meaner oracle.
No doubt Microsoft is trying to monetize user data at this point as well, but their empire isn’t built on top of it. The parent comment said they use ProtonMail for personal, So I suspect they only reason they don’t choose that for business also is the weight the Microsoft name still holds.
Many of us got sucked into the Google vortex a while back on the basis they gave us many of the best software options, in many categories. But at this point, there is nothing Google does that you can’t find an alternative of equal or better quality. So if one day a person realizes Google values don’t align with their own, slowly phasing out all Google services can only have a net positive.
So... they're a software company? Specifically an OS vendor?
Seriously, how does your description imply anything unethical?
You can't even buy a device today that forces you to use MS. You can always install something else or hack your Windows installation however you want.
> You can't even buy a device today that forces you to use MS
That’s only because they lost that battle.
This is nonsense. Microsoft doesn't ship most hardware running Windows, and there was never a time any of it was locked to Windows.
I installed Linux on dozens of Windows machines starting in the 90s.
By your logic, all software is unethical if it's closed-source. Apple, Samsung, and every phone manufacturer actually do put effort into locking down their hardware, so you must think they're all far more evil than MS.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesnt the free outlook.com (formerly hotmail) still have ads for everybody who doesnt pay? When I log in, I have a banner on the right.
But to your point, maybe the ad is there to annoy people into paying, and less as a source of revenue.
As you surely know the HN crowd isn't a monolithic thing, it is made of a lot of people covering the entire spectrum of existing opinions. Different groups are complaining for different reasons, so that's really to be expected...
Also, google trips. That was great to plan trips about. (Although their map collections is terrible)
Google: our business is ads, and you’re the product. Put more of your data into Gmail so that we can show you more ads and do a million other things that benefit us.
Microsoft: our business is software and services and hardware and a bunch of other stuff you can pay us money for. E-mail service is the product, and you’re the customer.
"""Microsoft uses the data we collect to provide you with rich, interactive experiences. In particular, we use data to: [etc and so forth]; Advertise and market to you, which includes sending promotional communications, targeting advertising, and presenting you with relevant offers."""
Microsoft is a lot better than Google, but I still feel like I am their product when I use their OS.
Edit: there is also the Import-Export tool https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/export-import-.... And an export action from the web interface (though that's only for individual emails, so not practical for mass download).
Good luck when you have 3000 emails and you are physically disabled.
In other words, signing in and using the service is "free", but you must pay to quit it or move to another provider.
There are also many other data than just emails : contact list, your private keys, the folders/tags you used, and all other personal data that Protomail may have about you.
Facebook and Google allow you to download a single zip of _all_ your data, at any time you wish, _for free_. They do it because it is required by the _law_, not because they are being nice.
So, yep. I would send a big warning to anyone who wants to try Protonmail, because Protonmail's terms of service uses dark pattern in that regard, and probably illegal in EU or California.
Nothing to do with a dark pattern.
That's not true. I'm talking about consumer rights. In fact, last I checked (about 1 or 2 months ago), Data Portability Right doesn't even exist in Swiss laws, but it does exist in GDPR and the California Privacy Act.
Protonmail is all built around the Swiss bank image of "your data is as secure than your money". Protonmail doesn't even offer IMAP for free.
If you agree with their methods, no one will stop you to use their services. But again : they do NOT comply with basic consumer rights common to other providers, and I wouldn't recommend them to anyone I know
Regarding the IMAP support, I don't see how it's an issue that they provide it to their paid tier. ProtonMail is a paid service, with an option to have limited free accounts.
We think the inbox should support more than just mail. Currently Gmail-only, but working on Outlook (and more) support.
Instead of 5 years it only took about 6 months. Your mileage will vary.
Will back out of Google slowly over the next 5 years. The countdown has started.