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Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by ericmcer on Friday July 24, 2020 @11:33AM (#23940699)
They have already tried your strategy. Economists thought free global markets would lead to liberalization in other governments. That has proved to be utterly untrue with China and as a result they have become the worlds manufacturing hub, while becoming more and more totalitarian.

Production wise, an economy that is not concerned with democratic institutions or reducing inequality will outperform one that is. With that in mind, globalization is basically a race to the bottom human rights wise.

Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by Aunche on Friday July 24, 2020 @01:01PM (#23941830)
China was more totalitarian before globalization. Without it, they would be more like North Korea. You don't need technology to send people to labor camp or burn books.

Globalization is why extreme poverty has plummeted in the last few decades. Hundreds of millions of people chose to leave their subsidence farm to work long hours in a factory because it's still an improvement for the quality of life of themselves and their families. Sure it would be better if an Indonesia factory worker got paid $20 a day instead of $10, but nobody is offering them $20 and you can't force anyone to.

Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by disgruntledphd2 on Friday July 24, 2020 @01:24PM (#23942089)
But you can, right?

It's a political choice not to (for example) impose import taxes on goods based on the difference between wages in the two countries concerned.

Not doing this is bad for people, but good for capital.

Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by bluGill on Friday July 24, 2020 @03:01PM (#23943256)
You can, but should you? $10 a day is better than the $5 they would get before. More is better of course, but your option isn't pay everyone the same it is pay some and not others.
Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by disgruntledphd2 on Friday July 24, 2020 @06:06PM (#23944972)
Well my option is to remove the possibility of labour cost arbitrage through tariffs/customs duties.

Like, I'm Irish, so I have benefited from this trend for my whole life, but that doesn't make it right.

Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by smallnamespace on Friday July 24, 2020 @07:35PM (#23945568)
It's not as simple as 'outsourcing good for capital, bad for labor.' It's been a stupendously positive change for foreign labor in countries that successfully ran low-cost export industries.

Literally hundreds of millions of people in the Third World to were able to raise themselves into the global middle class over the past few decades.

The main people hurt by the outsourcing trend have been middle-class people in wealthy countries who had well-paid, lower-skill jobs producing physical things which are now shipped in from far away.

Good for foreign labor, good for capitalists, and bad for the middle class in rich countries.

This could have even been a win-win-win, if managed more carefully — Germany had pretty robust job retraining programs for people who lost factory jobs. I'd imagine the UK did not.

Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by eli_gottlieb on Friday July 24, 2020 @08:20PM (#23945823)
You're operating under the assumption that hundreds of millions of people in the Third World could not possibly have raised their living standards in any way whatsoever rather than the offshoring of the First World's labor-intensive industries as part of a decades-long political program of wage repression in the First World.
Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by smallnamespace on Friday July 24, 2020 @10:43PM (#23946487)
There was a win-win-win available and it didn't happen.

We should be honest about who benefited, as well as who was hurt.

Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by eli_gottlieb on Friday July 24, 2020 @08:06PM (#23945735)
>You can, but should you?

Yes. Trade is supposed to mean that no side of the bargain loses. If my country's working class loses, I'm losing. It's not our job to impoverish ourselves for other people's good.

Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by Aunche on Friday July 24, 2020 @01:57PM (#23942533)
The US government can't audit every order of widgets to see whether the difference between wages is accurate. Even if it were possible, this would just punish poorer countries where it's riskier to do business in.
Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by nickff on Friday July 24, 2020 @11:49AM (#23940901)
Your first point is correct, but your second point is not. Bruce Bueno de Mesquita demonstrated this in "The Logic of Political Survival", and others have come to similar findings.

Briefly, rising incomes under a non-democratic regime lead to a local maximum of growth, as totalitarianism is inextricably linked with economically inefficient institutions. As an autocrat, your top priority is to compensate those who keep you in power, which requires wealth extraction from the productive; this disincentivises efficient production. Unfortunately, nothing about rising wealth will necessarily lead to regime liberalization.

"Reducing inequality" is very different from democracy, and would probably lead to reduced economic efficiency, as it necessarily reduces the incentives for efficient production.

Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by clairity on Friday July 24, 2020 @01:05PM (#23941872)
> "'Reducing inequality' ... would probably lead to reduced economic efficiency, as it necessarily reduces the incentives for efficient production."

this argument gets made a lot (for instance, re: the lower capital gains rate) because proponents want it to be true and its flaws are not immediately obvious, but it's unambiguously mistaken.

first, esteem from wealth is relative, and as long as there is a spectrum of wealth, the wealthiest will derive maximal esteem regardless of the absolute value of wealth. and that's the primary driver for the ambitious and greedy, not putting resources to highest and best use (which is at best a side effect). greater equality doesn't change that equation one iota.

second, it's plain to see that large accumulations of wealth are fairly unproductive, simply illustrated by the localized real estate bubbles driven by both wealth seeking safe harbor and PE-backed landlords seeking unproductive rents.

in fact, there seems to be a central optimum. relative to now, wider dispersion of wealth (less wealth disparity) seems to provide the best bang-for-buck when it comes to efficiency, putting more potential to work rather than mostly relegating it to the menial sidelines.

Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by SuoDuanDao on Sunday July 26, 2020 @11:52AM (#23957955)
This argument seems to be ignoring the propensity of wealthy people in redistributionist environments to send false signals about their own level of wealth. E.G. Stalin commanded the wealth of a global superpower, but he dressed in uncomfortable military uniforms to signal solidarity with a poor majority. That kind of 'wealth falsification' seems likely to cause its own inefficiencies not present if wealth is considered the result of better serving the market.
Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by TOGoS on Friday July 24, 2020 @01:07PM (#23941904)
> "Reducing inequality" is very different from democracy, and would probably lead to reduced economic efficiency, as it necessarily reduces the incentives for efficient production.

They are absolutely bound together. Ensuring that every person has the same power in the political process means that everyone has the time and energy to pay attention and be educated on what's going on the world, and that nobody has so much wealth that they can use it to buy influence. The trend towards more inequality while the working class has less and less political power is painfully obvious, especially in the United States.

Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by politician on Friday July 24, 2020 @12:13PM (#23941203)
See also "Rules for Rulers" from CGP Grey for an animated treatment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by bluetomcat on Friday July 24, 2020 @11:58AM (#23941034)
> As an autocrat, your top priority is to compensate those who keep you in power, which requires wealth extraction from the productive

That cost is insignificant when the ruling nomenclature is a relatively small portion of the population and when basic workers rights are not respected. Especially in manufacturing stuff on a pipeline in huge quantities, a totalitarian system can be much more effective output-wise, at the cost of disregarding any environmental and human condition externalities.

Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by nickff on Friday July 24, 2020 @12:02PM (#23941080)
The cost of compensating the “selectorate” is actually more related to regime organization (i.e. military dictatorship vs. rigged elections) than to work conditions.

This cost can be extremely high, as the autocrat has to pay off enough people to ensure that rivals cannot achieve an advantage.

Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by bluetomcat on Friday July 24, 2020 @12:40PM (#23941558)
Most totalitarian leaders use fear and repression as tools for maintaining the power structure. Defecting members of the nomenclature and their families are imprisoned and tortured. With modern methods of surveillance and control, that doesn't require a huge army of trusted agents, as was the case in the Eastern bloc, for example.
Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by nickff on Friday July 24, 2020 @02:20PM (#23942819)
Even extremely repressive regimes will bribe the selectorate; as an example, you can look at North Korea (or Maoist China), where the peasants were starving and beaten, but the party officials have/had new cars.
Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by ralala on Friday July 24, 2020 @05:10PM (#23944486)
> Production wise, an economy that is not concerned with democratic institutions or reducing inequality will outperform one that is.

The question is: How can the market be adapted to create a fair, innovative and sustainable society, globally?

How can a single government force any rules with these goals without lowering the welfare of its inhabitants and thus threaten its reelection?

Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by claudeganon on Friday July 24, 2020 @11:40AM (#23940802)
I’m not sure how much economists believed this as they were materially incentivized to parrot this logic. Most of economics is just laundering the interests of the ruling class with spurious math and heuristics that are unmoored from political and social realities.
Re:The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics by Gravityloss on Friday July 24, 2020 @11:57AM (#23941019)
996 in the west. I think many people who operate their own service businesses already run like this. At least over here, immigrants are heavily represented there.