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Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by Kapura on Thursday July 23, 2020 @10:48AM (#23927898)
>If the market value of such incompetence if FAANG salary, how can I do good work and get paid preportionally?

You're going to have to learn that, as a laborer at a firm, the quality of work you do is, at best, loosely correlated to your monetary compensation. Sometimes you can do good work, sometimes you can do bad work, but how much you're paid is going to depend greatly on a number of surrounding factors.

So, accepting that there is perhaps not a strong link between doing work that you're proud of at work and being paid well, which would you rather have first?

If you finish work at the well-paid FAANG job feeling like you still have energy to do good work, you can contribute to open source, build some side project, or, even better, none of those things. You can use your extra time an energy learning new things or engaging in a hobby. You don't need to define yourself by your profession.

If, on the other hand, you'd rather not feel like you're just collecting a check from your job, there are certainly positions and fields that will actually ask employees to move mountains. I'd imagine that firms like SpaceX don't have room for desk fillers. There are lots of scrappy upstarts trying to solve big problems, but you will almost certainly make more if you stay parked in FAANG.

I personally am a game developer; the challenges are unique and satisfying and i don't have to worry about whether I'm contributing to something worthwhile. I also make probably less than 50% of what my friends at Amazon and Microsoft are making. C'est la vie.

Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by throwaway9191a on Thursday July 23, 2020 @11:40AM (#23928492)
> You're going to have to learn that, as a laborer at a firm, the quality of work you do is, at best, loosely correlated to your monetary compensation. Sometimes you can do good work, sometimes you can do bad work, but how much you're paid is going to depend greatly on a number of surrounding factors.

This is really good advice. Your organization is given tens of millions of dollars to meet a set of goals. Those goals take X SDEs to accomplish. SDEs get paid roughly the same amount, regardless of their day to day.

At some point you will be in crunch mode on a highly visible project. Other times you will be updating wikis or doing things that don't need an SDE (I spend a lot of time getting paid as an SDE to work on tech documentation). The later are great times to do something you find interesting (maybe even loosely correlated with your org).

If you are an enjoyable person who can get things done, you are well worth the money. (except at amazon where the first part is frustratingly optional :)

Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by pantaloony on Thursday July 23, 2020 @01:16PM (#23929652)
> You're going to have to learn that, as a laborer at a firm, the quality of work you do is, at best, loosely correlated to your monetary compensation.

This has been one of the most disorienting and most important realizations of my career. Hard work, or even effectiveness, are only loosely correlated with comp. Often it’s even inverted, and that sense you get that your higher-paid betters aren’t very good and are barely even working is actually true when you get there yourself. It’s very weird but you must not tie expectations of effort or difficulty to compensation. Remember, we’re operating in an economic system where some of the best-compensated and richest people do essentially no work at all. It’s a topsy-turvy world out there. Your hardest work, highest stress, and most abusive job can easily be the one you’re paid the worst for.

Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by Zucburger on Sunday July 26, 2020 @06:36PM (#23960694)
@pantaloony

Isnt it interesting:

Economic theory is so incomplete that it is wrong

Currently taking note of economic inconsistencies and compiling them on the side so that we can create a more complete economic theory in a few years' time.

Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by grzm on Sunday July 26, 2020 @06:39PM (#23960709)
You don't need to @ the person you're replying to. It's clear from the comment threading and only adds unnecessary noise.
Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by SeanBoocock on Thursday July 23, 2020 @02:59PM (#23930952)
As a fellow game developer I really identify with this. I found a job that I am passionate about, even though it came at a significant tradeoff in terms of total compensation compared to FAANG. I would rather optimize for personal fulfillment and building something worthwhile, even if it comes at the expense of money.
Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by bumby on Thursday July 23, 2020 @03:57PM (#23931600)
Please don't take this as a disparaging comment because it's not meant to be, but...how to you define "worthwhile"? I had to read the OP's comment twice because it wasn't immediately apparent to me that coding in the gaming industry met my intuitive definition of a "worthwhile" endeavor.

FWIW, I think it's awesome you found something that meets your personal goal, I'm just curious how you arrived at that definition of what constitutes "worthwhile".

Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by SeanBoocock on Thursday July 23, 2020 @06:00PM (#23932903)
Worthwhile for me means that it has a net positive impact on the world. Specifically, that people who play games I've worked on derive meaning from their interaction with it or simply find an escape for a few minutes at a time. I make entertainment for a living; ultimately, the creative goal is to make people happy.
Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by Kapura on Thursday July 23, 2020 @04:42PM (#23932027)
This is a compilation of people reacting in real time to the next game I'm working on. Nothing I could ever build at a FAANG company compares to this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtxaEDp3AFI

Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by tuxcall on Friday July 24, 2020 @02:36AM (#23936463)
That’s not gameplay. Actually playing the game will look completely different. You might as well just be making an animated film.
Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by Kapura on Saturday July 25, 2020 @10:43AM (#23949551)
???

What are you talking about. That's people reacting to the announcement trailer for the game. The point being that nothing I could ever produce at Facebook or Amazon would ever produce that sort of genuine reaction from people.

Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by tuxcall on Sunday July 26, 2020 @05:58AM (#23955838)
You said FAANG. Either way, I think you greatly overestimate the importance of a video game trailer and greatly underestimates the joy Netflix, Amazon, Facebook, etc. bring to people. Not to mention that for many, they also provide an income and livelihood. BTW: Youtube is filled with reaction videos like that for all kinds of products and stuff.
Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by whoisjuan on Thursday July 23, 2020 @11:47AM (#23928574)
This is the fallacy of modern tech-based capitalism and I hate it. The job that I enjoyed the least and where I also did the least amount of work was the best salary I ever had. The value that I added through that job was nominal at best.

Other jobs that paid less felt more challenging and exponentially more interesting. Needless to say that happiness was proportional as well.

I came to terms with the idea of lowering my salary just to have more impact and work in interesting things in cultures that I enjoy. But there's something that feels so wrong about it. Imagine a Corolla being more expensive than a Mercedes C Class. This is the equivalent to that but in the opposite side on the equation.

It doesn't make sense but there's probably little you can do about it. Big tech companies ruined the job market. Not because they pay well, but because they pay too well for mediocre IC and Manager positions that barely move the needle.

Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by dnautics on Thursday July 23, 2020 @11:57AM (#23928713)
> This is the fallacy of modern tech-based capitalism and I hate it

I hate to break it to you but no capitalism (and for that matter no non-capitalism) has ever been structured in a way that would satisfy you. For labor to be compensated for its "true worth" there needs to be a way to accurately judge what the "true worth" of the labor is, and honestly, the person to whom it matters the most is the laborer. This suffers from several problems: 1) most people don't know what they are worth, ofetn aiming too high (dunning-kruger) or aiming too low (impostor syndrome) and 2) even if they did, it's quite impossible to read the laborer's mind, because worth is tied up in different values, that are not necessarily in alignment with the values of the employer (or the state, in the case of non-capitalisms).

I think these days things might even be a bit worse because we have a strong narrative of "do what you love"/"do what makes you happy" in most western societies (not necessarily a bad thing). But there is no corresponding "though may not correlate to what other people want of you, be prepared to pay the difference in price" narrative.

Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by neutronicus on Thursday July 23, 2020 @12:47PM (#23929260)
I do think "do what you love" and its cousin "shoot for the stars" get a lot of people in trouble.

Personally, "doing" in all its myriad forms isn't something I'm really capable of "loving." Similarly, "dreams" are more of a crushing anxiety-burden than a source of joy.

I think about this a lot because my younger sister, whose personality was similar to mine, but with more conscientiousness thrown in, took her own life in 2014, while enrolled in a top-14 law school and after graduating from Stanford. I get a lot of the mental-illness platitudes re: that, amounting to the idea that if only society had done a better job of ensuring that she got herself to the brain-mechanic and providing better brain-mechanics she'd be a high-achieving lawyer, passionate about the causes she's representing, today.

I wonder, though. She was not ambitious as a kid, and maybe if people had treated this as her personality and not a pathology, she'd have gone to a worse school, taken an easier path, and been happy and alive today.

Me, I have like, some ambitions, and I enjoy my job at times, but it's all in service of the comfort and security of my family and self. And honestly I think this "slacker" personality is on balance an asset for fatherhood.

Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by bumby on Thursday July 23, 2020 @04:08PM (#23931708)
I'm sorry to hear about your loss. I'm trying to make the connection to what happened and your comment:

>I do think "do what you love" and its cousin "shoot for the stars" get a lot of people in trouble.

Are you implying your sister was doing what she loved and it got her in trouble? Because the opposite comes to mind when I read stories like this, that perhaps people feel driven to follow the path they feel they are "supposed" to and are worse off for it.

I'm genuinely curious about your perspective but I hope it goes without saying that you don't need to respond if it's too painful.

Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by neutronicus on Thursday July 23, 2020 @05:18PM (#23932357)
In her suicide note, which I read six years ago and not since, she branded herself destined for failure and declared her intention to spare her family from the burden she was destined to be. She tried her hand at several careers and I think she didn't come close to loving any of them, and was conscientious enough for this to wrack her with guilt.

If you're told "do what you love" doing something you don't love is failure. But most people don't love work. That's why it's called fucking "work". If you're very ambitious, you do love work, because fulfilling your ambition makes up for, you know, working. If you are neither ambitious nor conscientious, you dismiss "love what you do" for bullshit and get on with your life.

If you are conscientious, but not ambitious - that's the dangerous combination. You can't bring yourself to dismiss people's expectations, so you blame yourself.

So, yeah. Maybe I'm full of shit. Maybe I'm just making up a narcissistic story where she wouldn't have killed herself if she were more of an amoral slacker, like me.

But I just wish there were more of a sense of permission to just shrug, say "it's a living" and live your life.

Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by bumby on Friday July 24, 2020 @07:46AM (#23938337)
Thank you for sharing. As someone who scores much, much higher on the “conscientious” scale than the other big five personality traits, what you said rings very true, but you framed it in a way I had not previously thought of.

I wonder if this is worse in the US where Americans find so much identity in their jobs. Regardless, as you said, people need room to just “make a living” and find purpose (and hopefully contentment) outside of one's work if we can’t all be following our passion (if we’re lucky enough to have even found our passion)

Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by dnautics on Thursday July 23, 2020 @06:39PM (#23933468)
Thank you for sharing your story.
Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by voxl on Thursday July 23, 2020 @12:28PM (#23929084)
All you've said is that labor market is fundamentally flawed in terms of price efficiency.
Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by dnautics on Thursday July 23, 2020 @02:14PM (#23930380)
Well, no. I also explain why.
Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by rumanator on Thursday July 23, 2020 @03:13PM (#23931109)
> This is the fallacy of modern tech-based capitalism and I hate it. The job that I enjoyed the least and where I also did the least amount of work was the best salary I ever had. The value that I added through that job was nominal at best.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. There is no fallacy, only a collosal misconception. Salary is not, not ever was, a proxy for happiness. At most, it's a reflection of the employer's willingness and capacity to pay.

Of course a company that makes billions and wants to poach the best talent out there has the means and opportunity to pay a whole lot more than a small company with no viable business model that's burning through cash. Hell, boring institutional jobs on old banks and insurance companies pay handsomely, even though you might be required to wear a suit and tie to churn out that sweet sweet COBOL code.

Salary is not a fun index. Some industries pay more than others, and are more fun than others. This isn't news. Where is the need to spin this a capitalist conspiracy?

Re:Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this? by jakearmitage on Thursday July 23, 2020 @12:02PM (#23928774)
You know you are not a machine, right?