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Re:Swiss Political System: More Than You Ever Wanted to Know by rayiner on Saturday July 18, 2020 @12:58PM (#23882779)
Folks on opposite sides of the pond have caricatured ideas about each other, because their impressions are based on anecdotal media representations. Compounding that is the fact that “parties” are very different things in the US system versus the parliamentary system. Parties in Europe have a lot of control over who runs under their banner. American parties do not. If the Republican Party operated like European parties, where the leadership selects candidates, the 2016 candidate would have been Jeb Bush of Marco Rubio, not Trump. But in an objective analysis, the Republican Party is solidly to the left of the SVP: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/26/opinion/sunda.... It’s on the right edge of the mass of European center-right parties. (I would argue that this analysis somewhat overstates how far right the Republican Party is. As the article notes: “The Republican platform does not include the same bigoted policies, and its score is pushed to the right because of its emphasis on traditional morality and a ‘national way of life.’” Americans are by far the most religious developed country. In France, arguing for the maintenance of traditional French social norms is something you can do in a secular framework. Under the analysis of this survey, that doesn’t count as right wing. But there is really no way to express that same idea in the American framework while leaving religion out of it. But in this analysis, that counts as right wing.)

I’ll add that Americans are in a different stage of the same overall trend we’re seeing in the developed world. Even right-wing platforms in France or Germany have never needed to call for adherence to traditional French or German values, because it was taken for granted. 80% of Germany is still ethnic Germans. Another 10% are other kinds of Europeans. In the United States in the United States only 60% is of European ancestry, and even among those people you’ve got a mix of British, Germans, Italians, Irish, etc. European countries aren’t really multi-cultural the way America is, so there is no need even for right wing parties to make culture an issues. French being the national language of France has overwhelming acceptance (90%+). There was never a reason for right wing parties to even bring it up. But in America, making English the national language is a right-wing talking point, because Americans don’t take it for granted.

But taking culture for granted is something that is rapidly changing in Europe. Le Pen got 30% in the last French election. Now she’s polling at 45% in a head-to-head with Macron. The dominant CDU in Germany is bleeding members to AfD. The new leader of the CDU is significantly further right than Merkel: she opposes abortion and gay marriage, and declared the 2015 acceptance of refugees as “a mistake” that they’ve “learnt from and won’t repeat.”

Re:Swiss Political System: More Than You Ever Wanted to Know by phreeza on Saturday July 18, 2020 @03:47PM (#23884247)
I don't think the rise of the AfD in Germany has much to do with a reduction in ethnic or cultural 'purity'.

The general political consensus position in Germany has shifted considerably to the left over the last 30 or so years. This has alienated some people and the AfD is the recepticle.

Much of the rethoric employed by the AfD could have been found in the CDU just 10 or so years ago, including appeals to German culture as you mentioned. "Leitkultur" was one famous topic of debate. Other classics include "Kinder statt Inder", and "Das boot ist voll".

Re:Swiss Political System: More Than You Ever Wanted to Know by rayiner on Saturday July 18, 2020 @04:00PM (#23884358)
The influx of immigrants tends to precipitate disagreements within parties that to date were theoretical up to that point. That's what happened with the Republican Party. The George W. Bush/Romney/Jeb Bush wing courted Hispanic voters, with W. winning 40% in 2004, and Jeb carrying 60% in his Florida gubernatorial election. Then, the more nativist elements upset the applecart in 2016 by nominating Trump, who was opposed by the Republican establishment. Those nativist elements were always there--but the undocumented immigrant population increased 40% during Bush's tenure and changed the internal dynamics significantly.
Re:Swiss Political System: More Than You Ever Wanted to Know by phreeza on Saturday July 18, 2020 @04:57PM (#23884783)
So would you predict a correlation between number of immigrants in a county/state/country and nativist electoral success? I don't think that is the case.

I get that immigration is a hotly debated culture war topic, but I am not convinced by the argument that immigration is the thing that is causing the culture war.

Re:Swiss Political System: More Than You Ever Wanted to Know by rayiner on Saturday July 18, 2020 @06:41PM (#23885455)
I'm not really talking about electoral results. I'm talking about the NYT articled I linked to, which measures "how right wing" a party is by looking at what's mentioned in the platform. But what's mentioned in party platforms is a product of what debates are happening in society. In places without much immigration, immigration isn't a focus of politics and won't warrant merit on party platforms, even if the members of the party would have strong nativist views if there was actually a significant amount of immigration.

For example, in the United States, "making English the official language" was a hot-button political issue for a long time (before even Republicans gave up on it). In France it wasn't, because nobody disagreed that French should be the official language (and it was). So if you read party platforms to gauge right-wing views, you might conclude that the French aren't right wing on this point, because party platforms don't mention it. But in reality, it's not mentioned because it's not something that's even up for debate.

Re:Swiss Political System: More Than You Ever Wanted to Know by 082349872349872 on Saturday July 18, 2020 @07:11PM (#23885604)
It's not necessarily as nativist as you'd think, because « la francophonie » is more inclusive than those who can say « nos ancêtres les Gaulois » with a straight face.
Re:Swiss Political System: More Than You Ever Wanted to Know by 082349872349872 on Saturday July 18, 2020 @01:15PM (#23882913)
Re:Swiss Political System: More Than You Ever Wanted to Know by jahaja on Saturday July 18, 2020 @02:22PM (#23883536)
To determine where the US parties are through their manifestos seems flawed since they are so candidate-platform centric.

> Now she’s polling at 45% in a head-to-head with Macron.

This is still a bullshit cherry-picked figure. The village baker would likely get 45% h2h too. Macron is deeply unpopular due to his "reforms".

> The new leader of the CDU is significantly further right than Merkel: she opposes abortion and gay marriage,

The one that got so unpopular that she's already announced her resignation earlier this year?

Re:Swiss Political System: More Than You Ever Wanted to Know by rayiner on Saturday July 18, 2020 @03:42PM (#23884200)
> This is still a bullshit cherry-picked figure. The village baker would likely get 45% h2h too. Macron is deeply unpopular due to his "reforms".

Macron and Le Pen are by far the two front-runners in a multi-way first round matchup: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Op.... If the election were held today, it would go to a head-to-head between those two.

> The one that got so unpopular that she's already announced her resignation earlier this year?

AKK's resignation was not due to her conservative views, but rather because CDU cooperated with AfD in Thungria to keep a left candidate from being elected, which is taboo within CDU. She was seen as being unable to maintain party discipline. The current front-runner appears to be Markus Söder, from CDU's even-more-conservative Bavarian sister party. Söder has taken hard-line immigration positions, ordered public buildings in Bavaria to display Christian crosses, and oh showed up to a party a few years ago dressed up like Ghandi in full brown face: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/markus-soede...

Re:Swiss Political System: More Than You Ever Wanted to Know by jahaja on Saturday July 18, 2020 @05:06PM (#23884852)
> There was then a sharp decline in her popularity following gaffes and electoral defeats for the Christian Democrats in several elections. As of February 2020, she is one of the least popular German politicians

It's even on wikipedia, but still you make some definite conclusion.

Re:Swiss Political System: More Than You Ever Wanted to Know by rayiner on Saturday July 18, 2020 @06:51PM (#23885500)
But why was she unpopular? It's because she's losing ground to the right: https://www.thelocal.de/20200210/akk-the-rise-and-fall-of-me...

> But AKK had to fend off an unexpectedly strong challenge from the ambitious Friedrich Merz, who is favoured by the CDU's most conservative wing.

> AKK initially sought to carve out her own profile in a party thirsty for change after years of Merkel's moderate course in a loveless coalition with the centre-left Social Democrats.

> She notably championed a tougher stance on asylum seekers and floated the idea of reintroducing compulsory military service. She also spoke out against gay marriage.

> AKK was badly weakened by a string of bruising election results, particularly in eastern Germany's former communist states, where the CDU bled support to the anti-immigrant AfD.

All that just reinforces my point about German politics becoming more right-wing: "The new leader of the CDU is significantly further right than Merkel: she opposes abortion and gay marriage, and declared the 2015 acceptance of refugees as 'a mistake' that they’ve 'learnt from and won’t repeat.'"

People aren't leaving CDU for SDP. They're going to AfD. AKK walked back Merkel's acceptance of refugees, but the leading contenders to replace AKK look like they'll be even more right-wing. So I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with me about?

Re:Swiss Political System: More Than You Ever Wanted to Know by jahaja on Sunday July 19, 2020 @05:17AM (#23888070)
> So I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with me about?

That you're trying to spin a narrative where the US Republicans are not considerably more to the right than even the right-wing parties of Europe.

AKK was even considered to be on the economic left-wing of the CDU? Sure, she had socially conservatives idea based on religion which is a shame but even the CDU's "family centered politics" would be considered a Bernie Sanders welfare state by the US conservatives.

People aren't necessarily full blown reactionaries like the US Republican party just because they have cherry-picked conservative ideas.

Re:Swiss Political System: More Than You Ever Wanted to Know by 082349872349872 on Saturday July 18, 2020 @07:08PM (#23885590)
True: in the United States only 1,6% is of American ancestry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United...