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Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by watwut on Friday July 17, 2020 @05:43PM (#23876204)
Complete eradication is not what Europe nor China are doing and have better results.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by strgcmc on Friday July 17, 2020 @05:56PM (#23876388)
This. And maybe we shouldn't trust China's reported data, but Europe is almost doing miraculously well if you compare to the USA. Not going for eradication, but containment.

With containment, everything else is possible (healthcare system not overloaded, economy can be opened up, schools can reopen, etc.).

The US has capitulated completely, and even containment isn't really on the table nationally; on a state-by-state basis, some states may achieve a level of containment, but others are simply not even trying (or like Georgia, actively banning containment measures like local mask enforcement orders).

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by jdminhbg on Friday July 17, 2020 @08:53PM (#23877900)
> but Europe is almost doing miraculously well if you compare to the USA.

This is totally at odds with the data. The UK, France, Spain, and Italy, among others, have higher deaths per capita than the US.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by strgcmc on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @04:20PM (#23910570)
Providing a source to confirm your statement: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deat...

IMO, the US will almost certainly make up a lot of ground on the deaths per capita metric (or leapfrog entirely), given the explosion of new cases starting in June and the lagging growth in deaths that comes after cases. Scroll down to the "Deaths" section with the weekly per capita "heat spectrum" of sorts, and the US recently has reached red hot over the past few weeks, while European counterparts have been much cooler: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/world/coronavirus-m...

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by asveikau on Friday July 17, 2020 @08:58PM (#23877938)
Older populations?
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by sigotirandolas on Friday July 17, 2020 @11:12PM (#23878581)
That helps, but at least for Spain and Italy, the hypothesis seems to be that the virus was already widely spread by the time lock-down started, so a lot of transmission still happened during lock-down until it got under control. I think it's the same for UK and France. but I'm less familiar.

Other EU countries like Germany, Austria or Poland fared much better than Spain, France, UK and Italy.

Maybe different cultures (e.g. how people relate, how compliant they are, how many people willingly ignore measures, etc.) also play a role.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by vondur on Friday July 17, 2020 @08:44PM (#23877845)
Where in the US is the health care system overwhelmed?
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by Izkata on Saturday July 18, 2020 @12:20AM (#23878879)
Right now, I'm aware of problems in Texas. Don't know how widespread or if other states are, though.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by tomp on Saturday July 18, 2020 @03:48AM (#23879792)
The main thing Europe is doing, is border lockdowns. Some borders are open, but in general only those to countries with low Covid cases. Other travelers get quarantine, policed to various degrees.

All of this is completely unworkable in the US.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by marcell on Friday July 17, 2020 @05:58PM (#23876417)
It's not really clear they are having better results. I don't know what the numbers are out of China, but certainly in Europe they had really big outbreaks in Italy, France, the UK, Spain, and other places as well. Their outcomes are pretty similar, in terms of deaths per capita, to the United States.

I think most media outlets are over-emphasizing the impact of government interventions, and under-emphasizing the impact of other factors that affect the severity of the virus. These could be factors like the health of the population--do they have a lot of smokers? obesity?, the age of the population, or other factors like the use of public transit.

It's appealing to assume that the most important factor in deciding outcomes is government policy. This is reassuring because we (society) can control government policy. But I haven't seen any good data to suggest that government policy is the most impactful factor compared to other hypotheses.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by jedberg on Friday July 17, 2020 @06:13PM (#23876584)
> Their outcomes are pretty similar, in terms of deaths per capita, to the United States.

Except that they are all now on downward trajectories while being more open (as opposed to the US, which is on an upward trajectory). Travel is allowed in Europe. Schools are open. Bars are open. And they are still on a downward trajectory.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by selectodude on Friday July 17, 2020 @06:24PM (#23876689)
And furthermore, there are locations in the United States that have handled the virus pretty well and are powerless to stop people from coming up there and messing it all up.

“Mike, from Old Town, who did not want to share his last name, ordered a vodka Red Bull before getting back in line with friends at Old Crow Smokehouse’s curbside bar. He had just gotten back from a vacation in Dallas, Texas, with a friend, where he left a day early due to the spike in cases and the state’s rolling back on its openings.

“[It feels] like I’m the problem,” he said with a nervous laugh as he talked about being out and about amid the pandemic. Looking around at the throngs of people drinking and walking around Wrigleyville, he said it is concerning.”

What the hell are we supposed to do about that with zero national plan? All the local shutdowns in the world are useless unless we can put the interstate commerce clause on hold for a bit.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by dehrmann on Friday July 17, 2020 @08:35PM (#23877786)
> What the hell are we supposed to do about that with zero national plan?

Looking at California, a state where borders are mostly in remote areas that aren't especially porous (compared to NYC/NJ), there's still be a huge surge, and nothing points to borders being the reason. It's mostly state and county-level policy. States around NYC seem to have stomped it down relatively well, despite there being three states involved.

The US is huge and diverse, so you're not going to get a "national plan." The best you can hope for is guidance.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by rayiner on Friday July 17, 2020 @07:02PM (#23877038)
The one national level thing Trump could and should have done, but didn’t, is ban international and interstate travel.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by Izkata on Saturday July 18, 2020 @05:19PM (#23884940)
> as opposed to the US, which is on an upward trajectory

You have the wrong scale in mind. The US is closer to the EU than a single country here - individual states have totally different trajectories. For example, Illinois, where I am, looks like those European countries that were hit hard early and is also opening up.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by watwut on Friday July 17, 2020 @06:27PM (#23876705)
Except that big outbreaks were used as learning experience by other places who managed to contain issue before it became big and are opening now. While having enough testing capacitiy and experimenting with exact rules that allow them to open up.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by electriclove on Friday July 17, 2020 @06:10PM (#23876542)
No place in the world is handling this as poorly as we have. Well.. maybe Brazil?
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by watwut on Friday July 17, 2020 @06:24PM (#23876683)
What about Iran?
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by quicklime on Friday July 17, 2020 @06:39PM (#23876815)
The US has higher case and death counts than Iran, both in absolute terms as well as per-capita. The US also looks to be on a worse trajectory.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by FuckButtons on Saturday July 18, 2020 @01:40AM (#23879300)
Yeah, based on the self reported numbers out of Iran, which you can trust about as much as you can their state news agency on any number of topics. Let’s not forget they were simultaneously denying the virus’ prevalence while their political leaders were dropping like flies and they were digging mass graves that could be seen from space.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by tremon on Saturday July 18, 2020 @07:47AM (#23880737)
With the White House issuing orders for hospitals to report directly to them instead of the CDC, I'm not sure how long we'll be able to trust the US numbers.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by esfandia on Friday July 17, 2020 @11:15PM (#23878595)
Iran managed to get over a first wave, but they had to re-open prematurely because their economy is in the toilet partially due to economic sanctions.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by anticensor on Saturday July 18, 2020 @02:32AM (#23879511)
The same thing is experienced in Turkey without economic sanctions...