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Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by gpm on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:26PM (#23865559)
It probably isn't with current technology, but it has the potential to become substantially less risky in the near future.

It has no earthquakes, no volcanoes, no hurricanes, no tornadoes, no floods, no forest fires, and so on. It has exactly two types of natural disasters - meteor strikes, and dust storms. The former are very rare. The latter can be mitigated much more thoroughly than natural disasters on earth.

Humans have to live indoors, which mean that it has no shared ecosystem. We can control the spread of pathogens by isolating populations perfectly. We don't have to worry about the atmosphere at large becoming poisonous because we are already managing the local atmosphere as a distinct entity.

It has no large groups of people who do not have the technology to survive in hostile environments who can come try and steal (and in effect destroy) your technology.

Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by chongli on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:34PM (#23865619)
It also has a type of natural disaster that we don’t have: solar flares. Mars has no dynamo within its core the way Earth does. Mars therefore has a much weaker magnetic field and so is far more susceptible to charged particles from the sun.

Solar flares present a huge problem for people living on Mars unless they’re underground. They destroy any technology that isn’t well-shielded. They also represent a major obstacle to a project to terraform Mars because the charged particles will strip away the atmosphere you’re trying to build.

Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by gpm on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:48PM (#23865729)
Solar radiation and flares are worth mentioning, but are easily solved by the "hide underground" or "hide under water tanks" solutions.

> They also represent a major obstacle to a project to terraform Mars because the charged particles will strip away the atmosphere you’re trying to build.

Not at a rate fast enough to matter, it's negligible on human timescales.

Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by kemiller on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:48PM (#23865731)
Right so most plans call for living underground, at least until they can put some kind of shielding device at a Lagrange point. I assume that’s what really drives Elon’s interest in the boring company.
Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by lumost on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:54PM (#23865773)
A mars colony would likely need to be underground from the get go. Much lower risk of catastrophic air leakage + cheap radiation shielding.
Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by mikepurvis on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:06PM (#23865846)
But going underground here on Earth also insulates you from like 99% of planet-scale disaster scenarios, especially if you're growing your crops underground and recirculating your breathing air, both of which you'd be doing in a Mars underground settlement.

I'm totally down for how nifty it would be to have off-world colonies, but trying to sell it to the public with these "what if" arguments doesn't even begin to pass the sniff test. Gates has been sounding the alarm for years about viral pandemics and basically nothing was prepared for it; how capable would we be of spending trillions on a "backup Earth" when we can't even spend a few million a year on stockpiling medical PPE?

Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by lumost on Thursday July 16, 2020 @11:18PM (#23866621)
fully agree - but there is a middle ground. Antarctica has maintained permanent year round settlements for various purposes over the last century. These settlements exist for no other reason than there are both scientific and economic resources unique to Antarctica.

Barring a general change in the habitability of the Moon/Mars or other astronomical body I'd wager that you would have a similar dynamic. If unique economic purposes are discovered including rich surface deposits, low-G fuel generation, or lower environmental concerns then the population in these settlements would grow for the same reasons that people have always moved to the frontier.

Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by LargoLasskhyfv on Friday July 17, 2020 @08:54PM (#23877904)
Which economic resources? I always thought research settlements are a money sink. Or are you speaking of the little bit of tourism?
Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by lumost on Friday July 17, 2020 @09:41PM (#23878211)
Research settlements are funky, funding agencies and scientists would be quite interested in understanding the geology dynamics on a tectonically dead world. Biologists will want to understand why mars never developed life. Medical researchers will want to understand the effects of isolation, and low-g. Donors, and funding agencies interested in these fields will want to fund expeditions. The expeditions will need infrastructure. The infrastructure's existence will motivate a few entrepreneurial expeditions.

Once the transit economics are understood, The Moon and Mars can both provide accessible surface deposits of water, iron, copper, and other commodities to orbit for less energy than earth. A number of activities for resource procurement for commercial space industries will be a tad easier when attached to a big low-g rock where an extra green house can simply be dug out. The relative lack of environmental externalities from mining and other activities may be a resource unto itself in the next few decades.

On a longer timeline - Mars could be given a tolerable atmospheric pressure and liquid water for <100 trillion dollars. Barring a change in global growth rates that would be ~3% of annual global GDP by 2120, and .1% by 2220.

Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by LargoLasskhyfv on Friday July 17, 2020 @09:50PM (#23878245)
Err, thanks. I meant the ones in Antarctica, or did I get that wrong?
Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by lumost on Saturday July 18, 2020 @12:06AM (#23878810)
ahh no - mistake was mine. Antarctica has been home to whaling colonies in previous time periods.
Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by LargoLasskhyfv on Saturday July 18, 2020 @01:46AM (#23879323)
Yes, I know that. But we don't do that anymore, execpt the Japanese.
Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by EGreg on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:39PM (#23865663)
How do they strip it away though
Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by bhickey on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:45PM (#23865713)
The solar wind hits molecules in the atmosphere and knocks them into space. This is how Venus lost most of its hydrogen.

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-mission-reveals-spee...

Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by wahern on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:23PM (#23865970)
A prerequisite was that Venus lost its solid and liquid water. As the temperature rose water couldn't precipitate, leaving it all exposed in the upper atmosphere. Oxygen and hydrogen would photo-dissociate and the lower mass hydrogen would get kicked out into space at a higher rate.

I don't think you need solar wind-magnitude energies for Venus to have lost it's hydrogen, it just sped up the process. Venus is pretty big, but it's also really hot. Venus' gravity to temperature ratio permit significant amounts of free hydrogen to be lost thermally without any solar wind sweeping it away. I think it's possible that Venus lost most of its hydrogen to thermal escape, particularly hydrodynamic escape, though today it's no longer the predominate mechanism for what little hydrogen remains.

Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by EGreg on Friday July 17, 2020 @09:49AM (#23870423)
Are you saying thermal escape can speed up molecules to such a speed that gravity can't get them back down and they just escape into space?
Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by wahern on Friday July 17, 2020 @02:54PM (#23874061)
Yes, not just hydrogen but even heavier atoms and molecules. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_escape#Thermal_esc...

The Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrodynamic_escape) on hydrodynamic escape talks about escaping heavy molecules as if that's the principle function of the mechanism. But in much of the scientific literature on early Venus, hydrodynamic escape seems to refer primarily to the escape of free hydrogen.[1] I'm not a scientist so I don't know what to make of that, but in any event thermal mechanisms (i.e. Jeans and hydrodynamic) can absolutely cause gaseous particles to reach escape velocity.

[1] Photodissociation splits H2O, hydrogen is kicked out into space via thermal mechanisms, and much of the remaining oxygen, too heavy to escape at a significant rate under the local parameters, is sequestered by the molten core, volcanism, and surface weathering. At least, that's how I understand the literature as a layman. The modern debates and research seem to be centered around the particularities, especially the early geology, such as how long core material was exposed.

Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by haram_masala on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:33PM (#23865607)
It has pretty intense radiation at the surface, though. Humans would have to dwell well underground to approach a normal lifespan.
Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by pantaloony on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:53PM (#23865766)
Living on Mars is like living in a bunker on Earth while a global catastrophe is underway. Except it’s always like that.
Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by gpm on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:55PM (#23865781)
Except you had time to plan for the exact conditions of the "catastrophe", and no one is shooting at you or bombing you, and there is no chance of further catastrophes like an earthquake.

Also - why is this a response to the person you responded to?

Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by paulryanrogers on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:06PM (#23865843)
Once the Martian population reaches any significant number there will be violent crimes.
Re:Mars is, at best, no less risky a place than Earth by gpm on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:17PM (#23865928)
Violent crimes? Yes. People starving to death because the sky has been choked out who want to break into your habitat kill you and steal all your food? No.

It's the latter that a large scale catastrophe on earth causes.