News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by paulmd on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:51PM (#23860865)
Rural areas are already heavily overrepresented in the american system. We certainly don't need to put the thumb on the scale further.

The ultimate problem is that "the rest of the state" (for virtually all states) is empty, hardly anybody lives there, and letting a minority override the will of everybody else is tyranny of the minority.

Taken to the extreme, this is ultimately what killed South Africa and Rhodesia and other countries - a relatively small minority imposing their will on the majority, things getting worse and worse with no recourse for the people whose lives were actually affected until things boiled over.

At its core, this is ultimately an argument for anti-democratic principles.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by dfee on Thursday July 16, 2020 @02:34PM (#23862206)
I’m not sure the translation of your argument works. America is not Rhodesia (Zimbabwe).

There is often something lost in this argument, which I think is a strength of the system, not a weakness. That is: the US Senate, which was the compromise, is a rejection of utilitarianism as the pinnacle of governing.

You don’t want tyranny of the minority, and I don’t want tyranny of the majority, so let’s have a system of checks and balances that ensures (within limits) that we address both groups.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by nitrogen on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:05PM (#23861031)
You don't think the people who live somewhere should have a say in what happens there?

Having city dwellers decide what happens in rural areas is the tyranny of imperialism.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by majormajor on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:11PM (#23861121)
So it's better to have rural dwellers with an outsized voice in deciding what happens in city areas?

You also are performing a convenient geographic sidestep where suddenly "where you live" isn't the country or even the state but is really only concerned with the local. So the rest of the people who live in the nation are diminished.

Localism has led to lots of problems in American history, now we can add a shitshow of a Coronavirus response on top of the others.

The party of localism tends to be gung-ho about that huge federal military operation... yet refuses a necessarily-similar intervention in a pandemic.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by nitrogen on Sunday July 19, 2020 @05:31PM (#23892602)
You paint the not-city with way too broad a brush, and nowhere did I say that people outside of cities should control the city.

But you are literally advocating for subjugation without representation. The opposite of localism you describe is imperialism/colonialism.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by majormajor on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:19PM (#23861238)
An extra large irony here is that "left-leaning cities in right-leaning states" is much more common than the reverse, so what we often see in practice is rural state dwellers telling city dwellers in those states what to do. Look at the mask stuff for Atlanta vs Georgia from today, for instance.

That's without skewing the strength of the vote, even!

So, no, I'm far from convinced that we have to protect the poor rural folks from their fellow citizens.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by Paradox0 on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:15PM (#23861172)
No, it doesn't make sense that people should have greater voting power based on their location in the same polity.

Your argument is equally valid in reverse -- there's no reason why rural dwellers should decide what happens in cities. Why should your vote count for more because I have more neighbors than you do?

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by nightski on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:26PM (#23861333)
While city dwellers vote may be technically less powerful on a per capita basis, they make up for it in numbers. There are simply more of you with similar needs/wants. Not to mention far more money to achieve those needs and wants. In a city an individual's needs from his/her government are just less unique.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by TomSwirly on Thursday July 16, 2020 @02:32PM (#23862175)
You seem to fundamentally misunderstand how voting should work.

The idea is not "the rules should be set up so people like me get a bigger voice". It's _one person, one vote._

You don't get an extra vote because you're "unique". What?

It strikes me that you basically want the voting system to be be biased to your advantage against a group of people you probably don't like very much.

If this is true, it speaks extremely poorly of your sense of moral fairness.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by nightski on Thursday July 16, 2020 @02:39PM (#23862287)
No, I want both minority and majority voices heard. What I am saying is that city voices are strong. They get the majority of the funding and influence when it comes to politics, regardless of voting power on a per capita basis.

The difference is you are arguing that rural citizens should get no say whatsoever. I care about everyone instead of only those living in a small geographic circle and understand that the needs of those living outside of that circle are unique from city dwellers themselves.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by paulmd on Thursday July 16, 2020 @05:03PM (#23863780)
> What I am saying is that city voices are strong. They get the majority of the funding and influence when it comes to politics,

your experience of the american political system is vastly different from mine. You have a whole house in congress devoted to making sure low-population states get disproportionate representation, the other congressional house and the state legislatures have boundary lines that are gerrymandered to disproportionately benefit and empower you, a rural farming state has the first say in primaries and an incredible amount of pandering from legislators, the electoral college gives you disproportionate power over selecting the president in the general, you get incredibly disproportionate amounts of federal spending (military bases, road funding, etc) - far more than they contribute, I can go on.

Hell, in some cases the states themselves have been explicitly drawn to increase the amount of rural power - the only reason the Dakotas aren't a single state is so they'd get extra senators and representatives.

Again, you are coming off as a member of a rural minority who is crying that they don't have total and utter political power over the urban majority. You already have a hugely disproportionate amount of power, influence, and funding in the American system.

A vote in Wyoming is already 3.2x more potent than a vote in California based on electoral weighting, and the same is effectively true for most other areas of the government that involve voting in any form. How much higher, exactly, do you think that should be?

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by Paradox0 on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:30PM (#23865584)
Cities are much more diverse than rural areas in terms of ethnicity, religion, economic class, linguistics, etc. To claim that city dwellers have "similar needs/wants" simply doesn't make any sense.

And having "similar needs/wants" doesn't have a logical connection to justifying taking away their voting voices.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by thehappypm on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:33PM (#23861418)
No, it isn't. One person, one vote. If there are more farmers than city dwellers, the farmers have more say. If there are more city dwellers than farmers, the city dwellers have more say.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by TomSwirly on Thursday July 16, 2020 @02:27PM (#23862105)
Let me get this straight. You think that some people should get effectively more votes, just because of where they live?

And if these people don't get extra votes, it's "the tyranny of imperialism"?

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by vmladenov on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:13PM (#23861143)
That is an argument for federalism, not vote tally inequality.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by paulmd on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:16PM (#23861190)
You do have a say in what happens there, that's why there's local elections.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by axaxs on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:21PM (#23861261)
If you break this argument down, it gets really muddled.

Let's pick a state - Kansas, nice and rectangle. Let's say it was empty, and 10 farmers moved in and divided it 10 ways. They are happy to themselves on their huge plots of land, doing their own thing.

One farmer needs extra cash, so sells off a dozen acres. That dozen acres puts in a neighborhood of 20 houses. Now that 20 houses controls the entire state, effectively. They decide people shouldn't be able to own so much land, and owning more than 10 acres is illegal.

Sure it's contrived, but you start to notice how it's not as simple as 'majority rules is best.'

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by fzeroracer on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:25PM (#23861313)
If you were to break down the argument even further, let's say Kansas had a farmer that owned 90% of the land. The remaining 10% of the land was shared between 1000 people.

Why should that single farmer be allowed to control the entire state over the rest of the 1000 people?

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by axaxs on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:26PM (#23861327)
I'm not making that argument, either. I guess I'm playing devil's advocate. I honestly don't think either scenario is correct, so what's the solution?
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by sangnoir on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:52PM (#23861658)
You're implicitly making that argument though - pitting raw number of people vs land owned as a measure of who gets more say.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by axaxs on Thursday July 16, 2020 @02:27PM (#23862101)
I'm making the argument that one concentrated area should not control the fate of a much larger area. I'm not, however, asserting that the larger area should control the fate of the concentrated area, either.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by paulmd on Thursday July 16, 2020 @05:41PM (#23864136)
I think the issue we're all dancing around is that state lines really need to be re-cut. The rural areas have more in common with each other, the urban areas have more in common with each other.

Cut the urban areas into their own states (eg take the metro NYC or Chicago area and make them their own states) and then merge a lot of the "empty land" in between to try and equalize the population somewhat. End up with somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 urban states and 15 rural states.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by axaxs on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:35PM (#23865634)
Yeah, I got downvoted, but I was really trying to be philosophical and frame an opposing side. I walked around a while thinking on it, and that's all I came up with - more states. Our nation would look really gerrymandered, I think.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by paulmd on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:07PM (#23865855)
I actually think less states. Like, even 15 rural states is probably a stretch, it probably would be closer to 8. There really isn't a point to having like 30 states that have less than a half million people in them.

I would slice it into something like:

* Appalachia Region

* Gulf Region

* Great Lakes Region

* Heartland region

* Rockies Region

* Cascadia Region

* Desert Region (Southwest US - need a better name but I'm coming up with a blank.)

* Maybe a Northern Shield region? Could just be part of the rockies region.

Those areas all have common environmental concerns and life experiences, and would bring a sufficient number of residents to be worth bothering over. Then you have the metro areas as their own states, enclaves within the larger regions. If metro areas grow out you would probably would have to have some mechanism to vote to transfer counties/districts between states.

Never going to happen of course, the number of political barriers is insane. And Republicans would never ratify any such plan that rearranged states as any sensible arrangement would unwind the disproportionate power they wield based on the current arrangement.

The only mechanism that could conceivably be achieved is splitting blue states up, and it's not really a good one since populations are so concentrated - imagine trying to split New York City into like 5 independent states, it would just be completely impossible to administer in practice.

In reality we will just keep bumbling along with our current system that immensely, disproportionately advantages the rural states and rural populations. Unless the country goes into an actual civil war, of course, which is not as unthinkable as it was 4 years ago.