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Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by harryf on Friday July 10, 2020 @07:23AM (#23790361)
Hmmm this article says a lot without really saying anything. It concludes with implication that we should stop shaming people for posting selfies, without tackling the question "why do people publish selfies in the first place?" or managing to refute the idea that it's narcissistic.

This paper https://www.ntu.edu.sg/home/linqiu/publications/selfie.pdf shows...

> " that selfies reflect their owners’ personality traits. We identified a number of personality-related cues. For example, emotional positivity predicts agreeableness and open-ness, duckface indicates neuroticism, and private location in the background indicates less conscientiousness. These cues reflect the characteristics of their corresponding personality traits"

Meanwhile the article focused on the Oxford dictionary definition of selfie. I'd argue it's far more interesting to look at the urbandictionary definitions - there are over 70 definitions here - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Selfie some of which are over 10 years old like this one from 2009...

> A picture taken of yourself that is planned to be uploaded to Facebook, Myspace or any other sort of social networking website. You can usually see the person's arm holding out the camera in which case you can clearly tell that this person does not have any friends to take pictures of them so they resort to Myspace to find internet friends and post pictures of themselves, taken by themselves. A selfie is usually accompanied by a kissy face or the individual looking in a direction that is not towards the camera.

Duck face was called "kissy face" back then apparently. Anyway it's interesting to see how a definition on urbandictionary has evolved over time and I'd argue the urbandictionary is a better gauge of groupthink on a topic like this than the Oxford Dictionary.

Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by EForEndeavour on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:54AM (#23790976)
> Duck face was called "kissy face" back then apparently

Although "duck face" was a thing by 2007, evidently it hadn't made it into the vocabulary of that particular Urban Dictionary contributor in 2009: https://www.dictionary.com/e/memes/duck-lips/#:~:text=The%20....

Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by 082349872349872 on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:11AM (#23791098)
We shouldn't shame people for posting selfies, because without selfies there could be no meta-selfie:

http://panevin.ru/uploads/blog/2016/lenin_selfi_1024-2.jpg

(not only was Lenin a mushroom, but he invented the selfie before the west?)

Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by hippich on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:24AM (#23791213)
We should not shame people - that should be enough on its own IMHO :)
Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by asa4akj on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:10AM (#23791612)
Completely disagree. Shame is a very potent society shaping factor. Without it humans wouldn't be as civilized.

So we should just use shame appropriately.

Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by hippich on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:06AM (#23792205)
Intuitively, I agree with potential shaping factor. But shaming making people civilized - that certainly deserves a citation.

But that's all besides the point. Judging by myself only of course, I seriously doubt people shame others because of the duty to higher purpose (making people civilized).

Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by vageli on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:49AM (#23792756)
Shame is a way to impose social norms without violence. To me it is intuitive that shame is a fundamental tool used to organize groups, especially when thinking about the formation of more primitive societies. Not intended to replace a citation, just my two cents.
Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by soared on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:09PM (#23792969)
A sportscaster recently talked about how great public shaming is. Athletes who make dumb tweets learn better if they’re publicly shamed rather than when they are suspended from playing.

That makes sense to me - do something dumb socially, the repercussions should be social as well.

Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by nitrogen on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:26PM (#23793162)
This is definitely a position that is easier to hold in a position of privilege/popularity.

Shaming has rather drastic negative consequences, especially in communities that shame intelligence, education, gender, race, neurotype, etc.

Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by pc86 on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:43PM (#23793375)
I don't think anyone here implied shaming doesn't have [potentially negative] consequences.

It's a non-violent tool to shape societal or group norms. If you are in a shitty group (e.g. one that shames education), that doesn't change the argument.

Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by nitrogen on Saturday July 11, 2020 @12:50PM (#23803507)
Rule #1 with any weapon is to ask what it looks like when the tables are turned and someone uses it against you.
Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by asa4akj on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:15AM (#23844712)
Every weapon is bad in the arms of the enemy. I won't be cutting any hands because they can form fists.
Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by harryf on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:01AM (#23791524)
Is that truly an absolute?

“You we’re texting and driving. You could have killed someone!”

And if you genuinely believe people posting selfies are narcissists, does this mean you should ignore and keep quiet?

Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by ghostpepper on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:20AM (#23792388)
Are we talking about whether it's morally defensible to shame someone for doing something irresponsible (like texting and driving) or whether it's actually likely to change their behavior (ie. whether it's good for society).

The latter does not seem to clear cut; there are likely better, more positive ways to change behavior. Shame is more likely to make the person get better at hiding their irresponsible behavior, which is actually counterproductive for society.

I'm still not convinced that shame is ever a useful tool.

Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by hippich on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:49AM (#23791998)
I can see why would you care about texting and driving (and why there are laws against it). Why would you care about selfies?
Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by WilTimSon on Friday July 10, 2020 @07:44AM (#23790518)
> private location in the background indicates less conscientiousness

Wait, I'm struggling with this one. How does showing off a private location (I presume this means someone's home, a bedroom, etc?) indicate that they are less conscientious? The paper says "more conscientious individuals are less likely to reveal their personal space in the background." However, this seems to me like it should be using "cautious" instead of "conscientious". Not being eager to show off your personal space indicates apprehension and carefulness with what you share, I never associated these with conscientiousness.

Re:The Selfie and the Self: In Defence of Duckface (2019) by jrumbut on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:48AM (#23790936)
My reading was that private place could be read as bathroom or an unkempt bedroom rather than, say, a well decorated study or private photo studio.