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Re:A Woman Who Needed to Be Upside-Down (2012) by derefr on Thursday July 09, 2020 @11:23AM (#23781233)
> Or her blood pressure could be so low that blood reached the brain only when she was upside down. Blood pressure that low could have been triggered by an allergic reaction, anaphylactic shock, or severe dehydration.

So, if this is a generic thing about low blood-pressure, including—potentially—low blood-pressure from shock... then could inverting someone who's going into shock in the field (where an ambulance is not yet arrived), be neuroprotective—ensuring they keep some oxygenated blood near their blood-brain barrier to feed their brain, long enough to stave off brain damage until EMTs can arrive and get a saline+steroid IV into them? Would it work for all types of shock? Toxic shock, for example?

I know that in the case of the article, the cause turned out to be a malfunction of the pacemaker itself, but is the doctor's original line of thinking still valid?

Re:A Woman Who Needed to Be Upside-Down (2012) by dahele on Thursday July 09, 2020 @12:51PM (#23782161)
Interesting point, as this is actually the topic of some debate.

The position you're referring to is known as the Trendelenburg Position. The benefits were thought to lie not so much with increasing perfusion to the brain, but bringing more blood back to the heart (known as preload), thereby increasing cardiac output and increasing blood flow to vital organs. If you're interested in this, there's some neat physiology called the Frank-Starling law [0].

However, it turns out that in practice, cardiac output doesn't actually improve. In fact, this position also increases the risk of fluid build up in the lungs (pulmonary oedema) and can worsen cerebral perfusion [1]. Therefore, it's falling out of favour in the context of shock. A compromise might be to elevate solely the legs, but its efficacy is also being questioned.

This illustrates a recurring theme in modern medicine; the human body & disease is so complex and poorly modelled, that it's often not possible to translate intuition or first principles of physiology into treatment. Instead, one relies on real world studies like those reviewed in [1] - AKA 'evidence-based medicine'.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank%E2%80%93Starling_law

[1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/c...

Re:A Woman Who Needed to Be Upside-Down (2012) by alexpotato on Thursday July 09, 2020 @11:52AM (#23781558)
This is why they have, no joke, inflatable pants [0] more commonly known as "Military Anti Shock Trousers(MAST)".

I am not a dr (IANAD?) but the idea is that you inflate the pants around a patient's legs which helps both push and keep blood out of the lower limbs and closer to the hear and brain. In principle, you could do the same by tying a tourniquet around each leg but the MASTs probably cause less tissue damage and are more adjustable.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_anti-shock_trousers

Re:A Woman Who Needed to Be Upside-Down (2012) by prputnam on Thursday July 09, 2020 @12:38PM (#23782010)
I've been out of EMS for a few years now, but these have (or had at least) fallen massively out of favor.

Effectively, you could artificially keep the patient alive by using MAST pants, but they inevitably crash when they were removed. My old service had a few pairs tucked back in a closest, but none on any of the rigs. I'm quite certain they aren't in allowable by protocol in most places at this point.

A pretty wild device, nonetheless!

EDIT: Quick edit to throw in that I have heard tales from the old heads of using them to stabilize pelvic fractures, too.

Re:A Woman Who Needed to Be Upside-Down (2012) by sterlind on Thursday July 09, 2020 @01:31PM (#23782682)
Even if they crash, couldn't MAST pants be useful in ambulances in order to deliver patients alive to the OR? Or did it somehow make them less likely to survive than not using them at all?
Re:A Woman Who Needed to Be Upside-Down (2012) by czinck on Thursday July 09, 2020 @12:08PM (#23781715)
At least the more mild version of raising their legs is definitely recommended for people in shock. Probably something as aggressive as completely flipping them upside down will depend on why they're in shock in the first place.

> Passive leg raise, also known as shock position, is a treatment for shock...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_leg_raise

Re:A Woman Who Needed to Be Upside-Down (2012) by mikestew on Thursday July 09, 2020 @01:42PM (#23782826)
What I learned in Boy Scouts four or five decades ago, that when I recently checked (sorry, no source readily at hand) was still valid:

"If the face is red, raise the head. If the face is pale, raise the tail."