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Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by cure on Sunday July 05, 2020 @05:29PM (#23742200)
> To properly price the product. Otherwise, people at higher risk are subsidized more heavily by people at lower risk.

But that's the very definition of insurance: spread the risk over the entire pool.

US health insurance does not work this way, and it's part of the reason that system is so messed up and super expensive.

Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by ptero on Sunday July 05, 2020 @07:46PM (#23743227)
> But that's the very definition of insurance: spread the risk over the entire pool.

But the devil is in the details, specifically in the definition of the "pool". To keep it fair (and subscription voluntary) generally requires pooling similar risk levels. Which is why for car insurance your driving record is important; for term life, your age and smoking status; etc.

But at least in the US, health insurance is not really an insurance (as in your definition of spreading the risk of rare but expensive events); it is a complex monster touching negotiated pricing, access to care, etc.

Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by maxerickson on Sunday July 05, 2020 @05:36PM (#23742271)
What's the 'pool'?

You are implicitly arguing that it should be the entire population, but lots of people see it as a chosen group with identifiably similar levels of risks.

Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by eirini1 on Sunday July 05, 2020 @07:13PM (#23742980)
it should, obviously, be the entire population.
Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by lotsofpulp on Sunday July 05, 2020 @07:18PM (#23743021)
That’s called taxpayer funded healthcare, but US voters don’t want that.
Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by jschwartzi on Sunday July 05, 2020 @07:34PM (#23743141)
I don’t think that’s true. What US voters don’t want is the level of care you get from a doctor who takes Medicaid. A single payer system can work here but because of how bad the “poor people doctors” treat patients it’s going to require some convincing.
Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by lotsofpulp on Sunday July 05, 2020 @08:23PM (#23743478)
I don’t see US voters complaining about Medicare, which is basically taxpayer funded healthcare for hospitals after you’re 65.

Medicaid is intentionally handicapped since it’s a poor person program and poor people don’t have good political representation.

Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by dragonwriter on Sunday July 05, 2020 @08:28PM (#23743510)
> I don’t see US voters complaining about Medicare, which is basically taxpayer funded healthcare for hospitals after you’re 65.

“For hospitals” is just Part A. And, “over 65 or disabled”.

Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by smolder on Monday July 06, 2020 @09:09AM (#23747472)
A small minority don't want it, so they've spent a lot of money and effort to misrepresent what it's effects will be (see Wendell Potter's admission of this) to scare gullible voters out of wanting it. Even then, if it were in a national referendum it could pass.
Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by maxerickson on Sunday July 05, 2020 @07:17PM (#23743014)
For healthcare it's pretty clear cut.

For a lot of types of insurance I don't think it is clear cut at all.

(Note that the law in the article is about other types of insurance, not healthcare)

Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by domnomnom on Sunday July 05, 2020 @07:23PM (#23743066)
It should, obviously, not be the entire population. Why should I subsidize smoker healthcare?
Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by louthy on Sunday July 05, 2020 @07:42PM (#23743197)
Because you've eaten a burger, lived in a city, work in a chemicals factory, driven a car, crossed a road, [insert anything else that increases the chance of death or illness], ...

Everyone gets ill, everyone dies, smokers in most countries pay additional taxes on every packet of cigarettes they buy. But, even if they didn't, having a national insurance scheme (as we have in the UK), is the best way of spreading the risk of costly healthcare.

When you buy insurance you're not subsidising anybody, you're joining a pot of individuals who are trying to lower the overall risk of high medical bills. The more people, the easier it is to absorb exceptional costs.

Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by ryandrake on Sunday July 05, 2020 @10:50PM (#23744220)
OP succinctly summed up the exact reason universal single-payer healthcare will never be politically viable in the USA. The “why should I pay for something that also helps other people” attitude is pervasive and unstoppable here. People here won’t even do so much as put a piece of cloth over their faces to help keep others healthy while they buy their Ranch dressing and chow down on Buffalo Wild Wings. You think they’re going to put up with paying a little more in taxes for universal healthcare?
Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by heavyset_go on Sunday July 05, 2020 @09:35PM (#23743849)
Smokers die earlier, and die before incurring major costs from dying of old age. They are cheaper to insure than healthy people who live long lives.
Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by tsimionescu on Monday July 06, 2020 @02:04AM (#23745135)
Why in the world wouldn't you? It's the same reason you should subsidize cancer patient health-care even if you don't have cancer: because people should live, and as a society we have more than enough resources to take care of everyone, if we pool them correctly.
Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by WrtCdEvrydy on Monday July 06, 2020 @03:19AM (#23745501)
> Why should I subsidize smoker healthcare?

You already do, when that guy gets cancer, dies and has no money left over, your taxes pay for his care. You're just cutting out the middle man at that point.

Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by drewmol on Sunday July 05, 2020 @10:46PM (#23744202)

   How old is the smoker?  And you? What type of care does the plan for the pool you could both be in cover? There are risk pools of less than ten to over one million to choose from in private hc market currently... But the best argument is cost.  

   A single payor system would likely cost you much less overall for the same level of hc coverage as current options.   If you have to subsidize *more* smokers than you currently for a plan (risk pool) to be economically feasible but the cost of care is lowered enough that your overall cost is reduced it would save you money.  


  The reduced cost of care would increase the social and community improvement we see from a baseline level of charitable healthcare we as a nation have already agreed to subsidize. 


  A functional single payor system will likely require larger risk pools but greatly reduce cost by mitigating the current market forces that drive our ever inflating cost of care. Providing better charitable care for our sick is a noble and ethical goal to target as a society and you *being open to the idea* of subsidizing *more* smokers healthcare helps us achieve that so thanks for asking the question.
Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by scarface74 on Sunday July 05, 2020 @10:04PM (#23744002)
That’s actually the one carve out that insurance companies have. They can charge more if you are a smoker.
Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by toomuchtodo on Sunday July 05, 2020 @05:31PM (#23742218)
Life, disability, and long term care are not the same as health insurance (which shouldn’t be insurance! It should be universal healthcare).

You insure against risk, you pay for care, just as you pay for gas in your car and oil changes, but your insurance covers accidents (which goes so far as to charge people of different genders and ages differently because of the risk demonstrated by the data). Should I be offended that my auto insurance charged me a crazy high premium for driving a high performance sports car at 18 years old as a single male? No! I was a high risk based on the data (which distilled down to my own risk management as then owner of an 18 year old male brain). And if the data (even genetic data) shows someone to be higher risk for an insurance product (again, we’re not talking health insurance or healthcare), they should be exposed to that cost.

Life isn’t fair, and this is a poor attempt at tilting the scales if your goal is to make it more fair (considering the size of your risk pools at typical private insurers offering these products). It’s an unfunded mandate.

Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by perl4ever on Sunday July 05, 2020 @11:48PM (#23744510)
Your views, while very common, or at least commonly expressed, really bother me because of what seems to me like an obvious reductio ad absurdam.

You can always take any existing regime of discrimination and make it more fine grained, but at some point that has to stop or there is no insurance. If discrimination has to stop somewhere, then there's no principled reason why the discrimination you like is necessary, or natural. Even apart from the existence of protected classes in society.

If an insurance company can discriminate arbitrarily, why not do it in real time? Your car could have a monitor that would tell if you are tired or drunk. Would it make sense to allow them to charge you extra minute by minute? The ultimate would be to have the decelerometer that sets off your airbag signal the insurance company, and charge you based on the projected average repair cost before you come to a stop.

Sometimes people say car insurance is like health insurance and sometimes they say it's not, but both have extensive regulation that prevents the insurance company from maximizing returns, because insurance is extremely susceptible to devolving into taking in money and paying 0% out. It seems fundamentally wrong headed to me to have in your mind an ideal of an untrammeled insurance market of any type, when it has to be heavily regulated to be of any use.

Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by bassman9000 on Monday July 06, 2020 @09:46PM (#23754772)
Why is a red Corvette more expensive to insure than a white Camry?
Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by umvi on Sunday July 05, 2020 @05:47PM (#23742359)
Right, but people that have gotten into a lot of car accidents pay higher premiums than people with accident-free records.

Insurance is not socialism. If my risk of getting into a car accident is low, shouldn't I pay low premiums? Why should I subsidize bad drivers?

Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by isbvhodnvemrwvn on Sunday July 05, 2020 @06:04PM (#23742490)
Why should you pay higher premiums for color of skin or sexual orientation? After all you don't choose these. Same goes for your DNA.

I think we already have precedents which go further. With ADA you have to provide reasonable accommodation for disabled people. Some of them are disabled purely by chance, but some are disabled because they are dumb (they dived head on and are now on a wheelchair). No difference under that law.

Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by toomuchtodo on Sunday July 05, 2020 @07:23PM (#23743064)
In some circumstances (life, disability, and long term care insurance are not compulsory nor necessary in all situations), you should pay for risk you incur, whether by choice or not.

This isn’t about race or sex (and the discrimination argument made), but the underlying genetics that present as those traits (and any risks, such as premature death or the need for extended assisted care, that come along for the ride).

Using systems like social security and universal healthcare are better models if the desire is to ignore identifying and pricing risk (as insurance does) and spread the costs across the population with less admin overhead.

Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by acituan on Sunday July 05, 2020 @08:18PM (#23743440)
> Why should I subsidize bad drivers?

You realize you still share the same roads with bad drivers, right? Insurance pool is the wrong level of abstraction to isolate bad driving. If anything, it puts our skin in the game to advocate for better education, prevention, licensing and enforcement on bad driving.

This is almost the same for healthcare. Covid demonstrated one more time, state of public health is tightly connected to your individual health. There is no rugged individualism as far as the virus is concerned.

Re:Florida becomes first state to enact DNA privacy law, blo... by BobbyJo on Sunday July 05, 2020 @06:07PM (#23742507)
I think the idea is to spread risk without promoting risk taking, therefore increasing total cost to society. Pricing risky behaviors I'm all for (speeding, accidents, smoking, obesity in most circumstances), as it lowers the cost to society by penalizing the behavior and shifting the burden of the extra risk to the risk taker. With DNA, there is no change in the total cost to be made, the people with the genes will still be around and still need care whether or not you help them pay for it... Unless the goal is to make it more expensive for people with 'bad' genes to procreate. There's an argument to be made for that, but good luck making it...