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Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by BurningFrog on Thursday July 02, 2020 @10:00AM (#23713156)
> this is actually very expensive for the taxpayers

Uncle Sam has long since stopped paying for things with tax money. Any new expense is handled by borrowing or printing money.

Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by onei on Thursday July 02, 2020 @10:08AM (#23713231)
Isn't printing money when you're short risky economically? My high-school history was a long time ago, but this is what Germany did post-WW1 and it ended in people bartering the family silver for the essentials.
Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by pjc50 on Thursday July 02, 2020 @10:19AM (#23713348)
Firstly, it's only somewhat true; look at this graph https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/money-supply-m0 and note that it's not zero indexed. The raw money supply has doubled .. with surprisingly little effect on prices and wages.

Secondly, people get confused between extension of credit and money printing. For that you want the separate measure "M2".

Thirdly, the real lesson of the hyperinflation crises of Germany, Zimbabwe, Argentina etc. is that you can't print oil, gold, or the foreign currency needed to buy them. Germany was paying a huge amount of reparations to France (which would be where the family silver ended up - 20 billion goldmarks was paid, which had to come from somewhere).

The United States is in a hugely privileged position. It has enough domestic oil and food production for its needs. The gold standard is no longer relevant. Inflation and interest rates remain low.

If you imagine a dial with a yellow warning at "8" and a warning redline at "9", the US is currently arguing over whether turning it from 1 to 2 is going to be the end of the world. The limit does exist, but it's a long way away.

Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by BurningFrog on Thursday July 02, 2020 @10:45AM (#23713747)
> with surprisingly little effect on prices and wages.

No one - who's talking at least - seems to understand what's going on with this. It's uncharted territory in a world economic system way more complex than when text books were written.

I have to think fundamental reality must catch up sooner or later, possibly unravelling in a sudden crash.

Then again, I do not understand this!

Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by pjc50 on Thursday July 02, 2020 @12:05PM (#23714747)
Much of economics these days is fatally contaminated with ideology, so it's hard to find good explanations. "MMT" (modern monetary theory) is also ideological but has some interesting ideas that might explain this.

Conventional explanations include "price stickiness": wages and prices don't change overnight, they have to be deliberately changed by individuals in the market. And the more technical "transmission mechanism": just as an automatic transmission doesn't immediately convert faster engine RPM into faster road speed, there is substantial lag in the mechanisms by which money production affects prices.

The reverse process was seen round about the introduction of the Brazilian "Real". People had become used to inflation and re-negotiating prices regularly. Swapping out the name of the currency helped reset that in the minds of the public. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plano_Real

One of the more convincing ideas is that, because fiscal policy is either conservative or only expansionary for high earners, monetary expansion doesn't affect most consumption prices and only affects assets. e.g. house prices and the stock market.

Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by mrfredward on Thursday July 02, 2020 @12:30PM (#23715005)
>If you imagine a dial with a yellow warning at "8" and a warning redline at "9", the US is currently arguing over whether turning it from 1 to 2 is going to be the end of the world. The limit does exist, but it's a long way away.

The moment people think a currency is shaky, they get their money out of it and into something else. That leads to a huge oversupply of that currency in exchange markets, crushing exchange rates, and making the prophecy of inflation self-fulfilling. Much like borrowing, the moment people think you need to print money to survive is the moment everything goes to hell.

That being said, I think the fed's policy has been pretty reasonable. Europe and Japan have been more aggressive with monetary policy than the U.S. over the last decade, making the dollar very strong and worsening the trade imbalance.

Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by dlp211 on Thursday July 02, 2020 @10:19AM (#23713349)
The US does not generally print money the way Germany did in the early 20th century. While we do perform some small amount of monetary expansion through printing money in the colloquial sense, the vast majority is done by the Fed paying dollars for assets. The Fed will at a later point destroy said dollars when it sells back the assets.
Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Thursday July 02, 2020 @07:10PM (#23719126)
Selling the ~4 trillion created is going to take a while. Though I have reservations about that happening at all. Iirc the last time the Fed tried to unwind their balance sheet the market panicked.
Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by mixmastamyk on Thursday July 02, 2020 @11:35PM (#23720798)
Note the graph of the money supply in the pjc50 sibling post.
Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by chasd00 on Thursday July 02, 2020 @10:28AM (#23713451)
dissertation after dissertation have been written on the subject. To me, it boils down to as long as the world sees value in the US dollar, or there isn't an alternative, the Fed can print as much as they want.

It certainly helps that US debt is denominated in its own currency so debt is as much of a burden on the US as the Fed wants it to be.

Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by maerF0x0 on Thursday July 02, 2020 @10:38AM (#23713626)
https://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/charts/Inflation_...

Seems to me like breaking the gold standard has lead to quite a bit of inflation.

One problem with our view of inflation is that it's compounding...

Now, I think the real reason we have compounding and printing of money is that it's a form of taxation (on currency holders) and it makes government debt cheaper and cheaper each year that passes.

Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by rovolo on Thursday July 02, 2020 @02:52PM (#23716643)
That graph is misleading because you're plotting cumulative inflation on a linear graph rather than a logarithmic graph. The basic issue is that you should expect every 20 pixels to have the same weight, but you feel the impact of inflation as later/earlier rather than later-earlier.

For example, compare 1940 to 1950 with 1990 to 2000. Cumulative inflation rises 110% for 1940-1950 and 450% for 1990 to 2000. But, $1 in 1940 will be worth 57¢ in 1950 (145%/255%), and $1 in 1990 will be worth 77¢ in 2000 (1365%/1775%).

There are two ways to fix this: you could plot yearly inflation, but it's difficult to see long-term trends; or you can plot cumulative inflation on a logarithmic scale, but people aren't as used to logarithmic scales.

yearly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Historical_Inflation_A...

cumulative: https://uploads-cdn.omnicalculator.com/images/cpi-inflation/...

Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by maerF0x0 on Monday July 06, 2020 @12:43PM (#23749691)
understood, but the issue with assuming logarithmic expansion is "normal / desirable" is that it hides the fact that exponential inflation is the same as negative compounding returns on cash. With compounding inflation eventually it will take all of the money currently(today) in circulation just to buy a single loaf of bread.
Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by colinmhayes on Thursday July 02, 2020 @10:21AM (#23713373)
Sort of, but it's complicated. The us had printed enough money to quadruple the USD money supply since 2008 and there has been no change in inflation.
Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Thursday July 02, 2020 @07:13PM (#23719145)
The measure of inflation is problematic.

We have seen large inflation in stock prices, houses, etc.

Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by mixmastamyk on Thursday July 02, 2020 @11:38PM (#23720817)
^huge ...medicine, college education...
Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by centimeter on Thursday July 02, 2020 @11:49AM (#23714600)
That reduces the purchasing power of dollar holders, who are mostly Americans. It’s another kind of tax that doesn’t offend the proles as much.
Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by contravariant on Thursday July 02, 2020 @10:12AM (#23713280)
I'm not an economists, but I don't think that's how it works.
Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by PragmaticPulp on Thursday July 02, 2020 @10:14AM (#23713302)
> Uncle Sam has long since stopped paying for things with tax money.

That’s very disingenuous. Obviously we all know that spending is financed by debt.

But where do you think we get the money to service that debt? We can’t borrow infinitely.

Re:Hazard pay in focus as essential workers earn less than t... by jessaustin on Thursday July 02, 2020 @06:48PM (#23718998)
Where do you think money originates? Before dollars are paid to the government in the form of taxes, they are printed by the government.