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Re:Zero-sum thinking on immigration will make America poorer by cycomanic on Monday June 29, 2020 @02:19AM (#23674892)
> >I don't know where your "human wants are unlimited" comes from and is a pretty big statement to make to not back it up with evidence.

> For evidence, look at the average savings rate in developed countries. It wants were limited, it would be higher. It's also the case that savings rate doesn't increase as income increase (in fact the inverse is often true; compare savings rates in poorer China and Indian to the US).

That's a giant leap, to get from savings rates decrease in some countries to human wants are unlimited. Moreover, savings rates are quite country dependent (e.g. Germany has very high rates). Might it be that people in the US have been led to believe that they can make up for their unhappyness by buying more things?

> Clearly humans want things; this is the default case. To show this stops at some stage should require evidence.

I can easily think of many people who are quite happy without having more things. So I just falsified your claim. Moreover there is significant research showing that having more things beyond some point does not increase happiness.

> >Traffic accidents, environmental pollution, obesity, divorce all increase GDP, not sure if they fulfill human wants.

> Driving, cheap energy, tasty food and divorce clearly satisfy human wants.

Re:Zero-sum thinking on immigration will make America poorer by logicchains on Monday June 29, 2020 @02:34AM (#23674972)
>That's a giant leap, to get from savings rates decrease in some countries to human wants are unlimited.

If human wants were limited, we'd expect to see, for any given country, savings rates increasing as incomes increase. We have not seen this, and in fact have seen the opposite (even in America, savings rates now are less than 50 years ago, when Americans were much poorer).

>Moreover, savings rates are quite country dependent (e.g. Germany has very high rates). Might it be that people in the US have been led to believe that they can make up for their unhappyness by buying more things?

Someone could just as easily suggest that German savings rates are too high because Germans are too fearful about the future so they save more. There's no objectively correct savings rate, so we can't say one country's rate is better than the other's.

>I can easily think of many people who are quite happy without having more things. So I just falsified your claim.

My claim is that "human wants" are unlimited, which does not imply that every human's wants are unlimited. If some people have limited wants, and some don't, we'd still expect the sum of human wants to keep increasing. And savings rates suggest that the majority of people don't have limited wants (or at least have not fulfilled those wants).

>Moreover there is significant research showing that having more things beyond some point does not increase happiness.

We're talking about wants here, not happiness. Who are we to say that somebody can't have what they want just because there's a chance it will make them unhappy?

Re:Zero-sum thinking on immigration will make America poorer by __MatrixMan__ on Monday June 29, 2020 @02:28AM (#23674941)
"Unlimited" is a difficult claim to justify, but as evidence that human wants are in vast supply you might look at the way that Buddhism and Hinduism portray the bulk of human society as trapped in an endless cycle of wanting the next thing. It's not impossible to escape, but expecting it to happen en masse might be a stretch.

I think a more fruitful direction would be to distinguish between empty dopamine, and the kind of want that you can look back on and feel like it was aligned with your broader interests.