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Re:The World Doesn’t Need a New Gigantic Particle Collider by jacquesm on Sunday June 28, 2020 @11:40AM (#23669505)
I would favor an argument not rooted in cost but in physics. Whether it is costly or not is not a factor in whether it is the correct way forward, if it gets results it is the way forward, even if it is costly unless a cheaper alternative can be found. If it can't get results then it is wasted money no matter what the cost.
Re:The World Doesn’t Need a New Gigantic Particle Collider by dnautics on Sunday June 28, 2020 @01:58PM (#23670664)
Sabine's point is rooted in physics. It's that there are no hypotheses that are tested by the proposed energy levels of these colliders. It's just a fishing expedition. Quite frankly, having seen tons of fishing expeditions in biology (which individually cost way less, on the order of 100k to 1M), not doing it is the correct decision. Come up with a testable hypothesis that the collider will address, then build it.

Here's the result of just one of the fishing expeditions I saw (Dr Murray is a saint: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/pro.2339)

Re:The World Doesn’t Need a New Gigantic Particle Collider by jacquesm on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:43PM (#23672939)
So far the fishing expeditions in physics have been extraordinarily fruitful, both in the discovery of behavior that had not been predicted as well as in confirmation of theoretical results. But we are still far away from a UFT and there is a lot of knowledge that is still to be discovered in this field. On the total budget that humanity spends annually on far less productive things (such as weaponry) this is a small drop in the bucket. Let's see where it leads and if it turns out to be a dead end then we can all it a day. But as long as every new level of energy seems to give more and novel insight I'd much rather continue one step too far than to call it a day and maybe miss out on something crucial that we just had not thought of yet.

And even no result is a valid result!

Re:The World Doesn’t Need a New Gigantic Particle Collider by dnautics on Monday June 29, 2020 @03:08AM (#23675150)
What fishing expeditions are you talking about? Every major physics construction project to date has been justified by at least one, maybe more specific expected result that is theoretically predicted. There are a handful of we don't know things going on, like keeping a staff on hand for Voyager probes, but the main project was a smashing success.
Re:The World Doesn’t Need a New Gigantic Particle Collider by wespiser_2018 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @09:20PM (#23673486)
former Biologist fisherman, can confirm, a hypothesis helps :)
Re:The World Doesn’t Need a New Gigantic Particle Collider by philwelch on Sunday June 28, 2020 @11:55AM (#23669608)
> I would favor an argument not rooted in cost but in physics.

Did we read the same article?

> New measurements brought up new puzzles, and they built bigger colliders until, in 2012, the picture was complete. The Standard Model still has some loose ends, but experimentally testing those would require energies at least ten billion times higher than what even the FCC could test. The scientific case for a next larger collider is therefore presently slim.

> Yes, one can hope. But there is no reason why the particles that make up dark matter or dark energy should show up in the new device’s energy range. And that is assuming they are particles to begin with, for which there no evidence. Even if they are particles, moreover, highly energetic collisions may not be the best way to look for them. Weakly interacting particles with tiny masses, for example, are not something one looks for with large colliders.

> And there are entirely different types of experiments that could lead to breakthroughs at far smaller costs, such as high precision measurements at low energies or increasing the masses of objects in quantum states. Going to higher energies is not the only way to make progress in the foundations of physics; it’s just the most expensive one.

Re:The World Doesn’t Need a New Gigantic Particle Collider by jacquesm on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:40PM (#23672924)
(1) slim != non-existent, (2) so far every higher energy level has resulted in more insight, I'm all for increasing the size another order of magnitude, if that does not result in new knowledge or insights into the fundamental nature of matter and energy then we can debate whether or not it is still useful to continue.

There is no evidence at this point in time that we know all there is to be known at the next level energetic collisions. The whole idea that we are at the end of the line for particle accelerators smacks of huge hubris: we know all there is to be known. A similar sentiment pervaded the physics discipline about a hundred years ago and look where we've gone since then.

Re:The World Doesn’t Need a New Gigantic Particle Collider by imtringued on Monday June 29, 2020 @05:03AM (#23675760)
>The whole idea that we are at the end of the line for particle accelerators smacks of huge hubris

The worst part is that the LHC has been a success. You don't stop after a success. You stop because you've hit a dead end. The only way to know if we need a bigger particle accelerator is by building it and then either seeing or not seeing any results. After doing this we can definitively agree on never building another accelerator. Giving up after finding the higgs boson is like winning a bronze medal and quitting instead of going after the silver medal.

Re:The World Doesn’t Need a New Gigantic Particle Collider by philwelch on Tuesday June 30, 2020 @01:08AM (#23686751)
I'm not sure that argument works out though.

It's like saying, we landed on the moon by flying less than 400,000km into space, so why don't we fly 800,000km into space and see if we can land on something else? When in reality, everything we know about astronomy tells us the next nearest thing we could expect to land on is Mars, and that's 77,000,000km away.

I know we don't understand particle physics as well as we understand astronomy, but, taking Dr. Hossenfelder at her word that the Higgs boson "completes" the "picture" and that the theoretical "loose ends" would actually require "energies at least ten billion times higher than what even the FCC could test", it sounds like we're a lot closer to Mars than to the next breakthrough in terms of particle colliders.

Re:The World Doesn’t Need a New Gigantic Particle Collider by philwelch on Sunday June 28, 2020 @08:38PM (#23673250)
> so far every higher energy level has resulted in more insight

There were theoretical reasons to expect new results with previous colliders. I don't know that any similar reasons have been named here.

> There is no evidence at this point in time that we know all there is to be known at the next level energetic collisions. The whole idea that we are at the end of the line for particle accelerators smacks of huge hubris: we know all there is to be known.

This is a massive strawman argument to use, especially against someone like Dr. Hossenfelder who is a working physicist.

Re:The World Doesn’t Need a New Gigantic Particle Collider by jacquesm on Monday June 29, 2020 @12:49AM (#23674441)
All the people back then that thought we knew what there was to be known were working physicists.
Re:The World Doesn’t Need a New Gigantic Particle Collider by philwelch on Monday June 29, 2020 @01:05AM (#23674525)
But Sabine Hossenfelder pretty explicitly does not think that (and even states the contrary viewpoint in the original article) so you’re still making an unfair strawman argument.
Re:The World Doesn’t Need a New Gigantic Particle Collider by techphys_91 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @12:12PM (#23669759)
This sounds reasonable, but we don't have the knowledge to be able to make a targeted experiment now, nor do we know whether we'll gain that knowledge within the next 100+ years. If we just stop, then we might not have the infrastructure or the people/ skills to make those experiments when the theory arrives.

Even if we didn't get a physics result from a high energy collider, we'd have a few more generations of skillful and motivated scientists/ engineers. Perhaps there are more efficient ways to achieve that, but I think "a waste" is perhaps an overstatement; we lose something either way.

Re:The World Doesn’t Need a New Gigantic Particle Collider by aduitsis on Sunday June 28, 2020 @12:21PM (#23669834)
+1!

We don't know what we don't know, but one way or the other it's money spent on basic research and physics.