Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by ISL on Thursday June 25, 2020 @07:24PM
(#23646925)
Totally agreed, but if that one fab company falls over, much of the imaging industry has a problem. That's the monoculture.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by starky on Friday June 26, 2020 @01:59AM
(#23649145)
It is even more tenuous than that. If just one of a company's fabs goes down much of the imaging industry will have problems. A few years ago when the earthquake affected Sony's Kumamoto sensor fab it caused some serious issues for some camera vendors. Nikon for example had announced their DL 1" sensor compact line to compete with Sony's 1" sensor cameras and reportedly due to the earthquake they delayed and eventually completely scrapped the project.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by killjoywashere on Friday June 26, 2020 @02:32AM
(#23649304)
Are sensor fabs functionally similar enough to CPU fabs that if China tried to take back Taiwan, or just made it hard for Taiwan to ship chips to the West, the Japanese sensor fabs could retool for chips?
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by sudosysgen on Friday June 26, 2020 @02:50AM
(#23649395)
Absolutely not. The lithographies, processes, and packages are completely different. Some sensors are still made on 300nm processes, useless for modern CPUs. 45 nm is considered cutting edge for imaging sensors, but would be a huge setback for computing. Intel, GlobalFoundries and even IBM fabs would be much better.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by makapuf on Friday June 26, 2020 @03:59PM
(#23656286)
Sure. But in th he grand scheme of things 45nm is intel core2quads Q9400. My main pc has this cpu and the only thing I miss is not enough ram.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by bayindirh on Friday June 26, 2020 @05:39PM
(#23657359)
The increase in CPU power doesn't become apparent until you start to use vectorization heavily or use your CPU for floating point-heavy scientific computing.
Some of the code I've written can speed up 3x just by using newer SIMD instruction sets and bigger caches. It's unbelievable until you see it.
I also manage HPC clusters, so we see strange effects when developers excessively hand-tune their code for a specific architecture.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by makapuf on Friday June 26, 2020 @08:01PM
(#23658346)
Well of course hpc can benefit from 13 years of cpu advances. (And gpus). Noting that sse4 was even available on it. My point was we still wouldn't be relegated to stone age if we were stuck on 45nm processes, and we could also benefit from better architectures.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by bayindirh on Thursday June 25, 2020 @07:26PM
(#23646947)
In bigger semiconductor business we have three main fabs.
Intel, TSMC, Global Foundries. Intel is closed to outside customers, so again we have a duopoly there.
It's not very very different in the bigger picture if you ask me.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by amarshall on Thursday June 25, 2020 @10:00PM
(#23647966)
Intel offers custom work https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/overview.htm...
You forgot Samsung as one of the big fabs.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by bayindirh on Friday June 26, 2020 @01:51AM
(#23649097)
Thanks for pointing out both. I was not aware of Intel and, I didn't realize that Samsung got that big.
It occurred to me that Kingston probably has its own fab too.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by to11mtm on Saturday June 27, 2020 @01:19PM
(#23663086)
Yeah, but my guess is Kingston's fabs are primarily geared towards Memory (i.e. NAND Flash and RAM) (much like Micron).
Memory is fairly easy to fab; in fact memory was one of the first things we saw Asian fabs rise up and overtake US/EU fabs on.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by tooltalk on Friday June 26, 2020 @08:40AM
(#23651299)
Also, Glofo stopped developing cutting edge nodes (7nm or smaller) after AMD had ditched them a couple of years ago. It's now all but a two-horse race between TSMC and Samsung.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by barkingcat on Thursday June 25, 2020 @10:54PM
(#23648224)
Yes - Samsung is a gigantic fab.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by Synaesthesia on Friday June 26, 2020 @09:01AM
(#23651475)
That’s a recent development. For most of their history they never did. AFAIK
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by morcheeba on Friday June 26, 2020 @02:41AM
(#23649358)
There are lots of fabs, but not all specialize in techniques used for imagers (like backside illumination). I worked in LCOS and we had one vendor qualified that could produce a shinier metal layer -- something most fabs wouldn't care about, but directly affected our brightness & power consumption.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by noobermin on Thursday June 25, 2020 @08:47PM
(#23647556)
Two is better than one but more than two is better than both options.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by bayindirh on Friday June 26, 2020 @02:39AM
(#23649351)
Of course. More fabs means more competition and better robustness across the industry.
In a perfect world, It'd be nice for Nikon to build a fab with the lithography equipment they already produce.
Re:Olympus quits camera business after 84 years
by sudosysgen on Thursday June 25, 2020 @07:32PM
(#23646998)
I know that Canon had fabs for their sensors at least back in the day, probably also now.
First of all, there's two companies: Semiconductor and Imaging. Sony opens some of their technologies to other customers by transferring Imaging unit's patents to Semi and allows them for re-licensing. So, not everyone is using the same sensor even if they are coming out from the same fab.
Second, there's customer tailored sensor business. Sony can provide a customer a baseline to start and, customer can customize this sensor according to their needs and got it produced for themselves.
Lastly, there's strict division between customers in semiconductor side. So Sony Imaging can't access to specs and design of other customers' sensors.
How it works in real life?
- Sony A7 series use Sony's sensors with all their secrets at their disposal but, not with Nikon's and Fuji's secret sauces.
- Nikon orders customized, "Designed by Nikon" sensors to Sony Semi. Sony Imaging cannot access them (unless they buy and disassemble a Nikon Z).
- Same for Fuji. They have less rolling shutter in XT-4 for example, and it's again built by Sony, for Fuji. No, Sony Imaging can't play with them.
- Canon R5's sensor is "Designed by Canon". I'm not sure they are producing it. Sony or Tower Jazz maybe producing it. I don't know.
At the end of the day, the fab is almost one but, designs are many and diversified and, nobody can see each other's design. Like TSMC and Global Foundries.