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Re:Journalist’s phone hacked: all he had to do was visit any... by hutzlibu on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @05:00AM (#23625750)
If a organisation is criminal, then being member of that organisation means, yes, you are a criminal, too.

But in this case it is not a criminal organisation, by law, it is a company selling "software weapons" to a government the western governments view as legitimate and therefore ok to sell weapons to, even though it is not at all democratic.

So the company is acting within the law (probably), but we probably agree, that it is not moral to do so. If we agree on that, than it is also not ok, to support a company who is doing wrong. So I agree, to avoid people, who do no ethical work. But I don't know enough of the companies in question to make that final judgement and judge case by case, like always.

Re:Journalist’s phone hacked: all he had to do was visit any... by unsungNovelty on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @06:34AM (#23626330)
This is a great question/thought. I am really surprised at how people forget why laws, rules, policies and governance were put in place in the first place.

Rules/laws/policies are to prevent abuse/evil things and to serve people! RULES ARE ALWAYS MUTABLE and should punish abusers of law/rules/policies, NOT the people it is built to serve. Rules must/will change and they should always benefit people who are doing the right thing.

I will give a simple example on why we should go above the law and think a lot of things using basic common sense;

Recently our country introduced camera's on highways to avoid speeding. The govt is so rigid on the rule now that they have already fined people who were speeding in an event of emergency and even ambulances. And I read complains of these people on Facebook. Instead of the laws working to protect and serve, we see it happening the other way.

What we as a society lack is process/structure to handle the outstanding/exceptional scenarios. We need to build a system which tolerates outstanding/exceptional situations so that the system doesn't break down. But unfortunately, we don't tolerate any outstanding situations and it breaks down.

This organisation is doing bad things, and this is not the first or second time this has happened. So the whole world and especially the employees should definitely know what they are doing. They are engineers aren't they? So they are bound to be smarter than the average folks. There is no need for benefit of the doubt with them.

And let's starts acknowledging that many countries are still only in the drafting phase when it comes to dealing with most of the digital abuses, bad things. Most democratic systems are super slow when it comes to digital crimes and laws. So current laws are not sufficient and hence should not be used gauge the severity of the incidents the law cannot handle.

Also remember, Facebook started struggling a lot after the cambridge analytica scandal to hire, because people didn't want to affiliate with them. So this works. We should call them and the employees out for a better world. :)

Re:Journalist’s phone hacked: all he had to do was visit any... by smolder on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @09:47AM (#23627818)
Many people see the world as inherently adversarial. There is no cooperative solution to any society-scale problem for them. They just see a bunch of people and isolated groups with dollar amount score cards, clawing their way to the highest position they can muster. So, they have no problem helping one adversary against another, and do not see it as immoral to get ahead at others' expense. (That's what winners do!) The only problem in a trolly problem, then, is if you're not the one operating the switch.
Re:Journalist’s phone hacked: all he had to do was visit any... by aronpye on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @05:54AM (#23626076)
Being a member of a criminal organisation does not make you a criminal by itself, that is called guilt by an association and has been used by tyrants throughout history to justify oppression and killing without cause. You are only a criminal if you are proven through substantial evidence that you have in fact committed a crime.
Re:Journalist’s phone hacked: all he had to do was visit any... by jay_kyburz on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @06:06AM (#23626160)
Perhaps if you don't know its a criminal organization, then sure. But if you knowingly assist murderers do their job, I say you can go to jail with them.
Re:Journalist’s phone hacked: all he had to do was visit any... by aronpye on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @06:25AM (#23626280)
I mostly agree, but there is nuance to these types of things. For example, is everyone who worked in Nazi Germany a criminal?
Re:Journalist’s phone hacked: all he had to do was visit any... by cycomanic on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @08:03AM (#23626895)
Despite the fact that Germans as a whole held responsibility for what happened, it's a different question.

You didnt have a choice to be born German, you do have a choice to work for NSO.

So the question is more, does the accountant who was keeping books of the belongings taken from the Jews have moral (and legal?) responsibility? And yes I believe he does (and the courts in Germany agreed look up Oskar Gröning).

Re:Journalist’s phone hacked: all he had to do was visit any... by hutzlibu on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @07:17AM (#23626588)
Hard question, still disputed.

My point of view is, yes! Unless he opposed in a meaningful way. But most did their duty and did so proudly. And after the war everyone just did their duty because hey had to and no one was a nazi.

But the question also applies to today. The US for example use turtore and murder. So for some family members of people being murdered, because they attended a wedding in afghanistan, the whole US is guilty and therefore a legimitate target. I do not think so, but I think people in the US should take this more into consideration when thinking about terrorist. Most terrorist legitimate their actions (and get support) by saying they fight back the evil empire.that brings them only bombs.

Re:Journalist’s phone hacked: all he had to do was visit any... by cycomanic on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @07:06AM (#23626531)
Why do people always conflate legality and morality. A wedding guest might not be doing anything illegal eating/taking so much food/drinks that there is nothing left for anyone else, but I'm pretty certain many would make the decision to not invite them again, even without giving them a trial.

If we talk about its legal, whose laws should we even apply?

Re:Journalist’s phone hacked: all he had to do was visit any... by hutzlibu on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @06:29AM (#23626304)
Well, here in germany it definitely is a crime to be member of a criminal or terroristic organisation (§ 129) and I am pretty sure in the US its the same.

And it makes sense. The concept is valid, if you knowingly support criminal activity, which you do by associating with them, you are guilty (by varying degree). Mere familiy members of the mafia in italy for example will usually not being prosecuted, even though they are part of it.

What you mean with guilt by association, is when the nazis for example enprisoned whole families, because one member was part of the resistance. And from the point of view of the Nazis this also makes sense. Because family members do support each other and are close(in ideology), so one enemy in a group means, there are probably more and if not, then it is an example for others not to help anyone resisting even if it is your brother and rather stop or support them.

So the problem with guilt by association to me is not the concept, but how it is applied.

The cruel, despotic government is the problem in the first place, not the tactics they use.

And this concrete case here is about supporting authorian, cruel governments, by (indirectly) working for them.

And I am free to despise and avoid people by my own standards, no matter that they are within the borders of the law.

Re:Journalist’s phone hacked: all he had to do was visit any... by nulbyte on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @07:10AM (#23626551)
The keyword in your response is "knowingly." Simply being a member of one group or another doesn't imply that you know everything going on.