News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by TazeTSchnitzel on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @08:17AM (#23612860)
Suggestion: the access logs your web server collects are enough for basic analytics, and if you are curious for more, you can manually instrument your site a little. You don't need to give Google the power to spy on your users.
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by JimDabell on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:46AM (#23624836)
Server logs can't do this job well.

If the system is designed well, in a lot of cases the users won't be receiving the resource from your server, they will be receiving it from a) their browser cache, b) their local network cache, c) their ISP's cache, or d) a CDN. Your server logs might be showing several thousand hits while the number of times a page is actually shown to somebody might be tens of thousands of hits.

Server logs are great for logging what is happening on your server, but awful for understanding your user base.

Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by luckylion on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:57AM (#23624901)
Are b) and c) still a common thing with most of the Traffic now encrypted?

I wouldn't worry about a) too much, as you've already counted them, most sites are "one time use", and those that aren't usually have some interactive or time-sensitive feature that requires short (if any) ttl on any caches not under the site's control. d) is true, but also is somewhat under the site's control and should provide numbers.

Most people use GA for a rough picture of "how many people visit my site?", and stats from any CDN will most likely be enough for that. And browser caching doesn't really concern those people, because most visitors aren't returning visitors.

Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by throw10382 on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:15AM (#23625019)
Is it possible to add a basic ping that pings your server whenever a page loads (cached or not) to get around this?
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by renewiltord on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:28AM (#23625105)
Yes, with Cache-Control, and then if you turn that product into a SaaS so that not every website has to run a copy, you get Google Analytics.
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by nindalf on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:49AM (#23625254)
I think some startups are now trying to offer this as a self hosted service. That sidesteps the concerns around using a half baked, DIY solution as well as issues with privacy and data ownership.
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by eecc on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:04AM (#23624946)
Oh yes they do, and why would you want to break network caching to spy on your users? You can always add some little js to ping your server (logs! Again!) or a non-cacheable tracking pixel.
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by baddox on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:49AM (#23625262)
Sure, you can do that. Google Analytics is merely a free version of that service.
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by bengale on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @04:22AM (#23625495)
Free to you, the user pays with their data. This is apple giving the user the option not to subsidise the website operator.
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by 0-O-0 on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @06:18AM (#23626232)
Tracking (especially first party) is not some shadowy value extraction scheme. You need at least some data to improve your service and understand what brings traffic to your page.
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by tennineeight on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @06:41AM (#23626366)
The developer also pays. By giving Google their entire viewer/user base, so Google knows whom to target if they decide to create an alternative.
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by acituan on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:14AM (#23625012)
> Server logs are great for logging what is happening on your server, but awful for understanding your user base.

There is a high correlation between a usage pattern being interesting and likelihood of it making a representative appearance in the logs.

Understanding usage patterns shouldn't depend on knowing absolute numbers. Assuming "dumb" content is cached relatively uniformly, the usage patterns itself should be sufficiently inferable from the logs. For the non-dumb content, why would consumption of highly dynamic endpoints have distortive cache utilization at all?

To add more, how often high-resolution usage data really translates into actual product improvement? What percentage of sites have that much traffic to justify engineering hours spent on micro-growth-hacking based on this level of data?

Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by nwellnhof on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @08:21AM (#23612892)
Here's another suggestion: Learn how to configure Google Analytics properly.

https://support.google.com/analytics/answer/1011397?hl=en

"If all [data sharing] settings are OFF, your Analytics data is only used to provide and maintain the Analytics service."

Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by jesterson on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:41AM (#23624804)
Weill, this only "works" for you if you trust google. Given multiple security incidents in the past I am certainly not one of those people.
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by kinkrtyavimoodh on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @04:04AM (#23625381)
What security incidents?

Of all tech companies I'd feel most secure with Google being the stewards of my data.

Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by hyperman1 on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @04:54AM (#23625712)
Snowden. They were leaking a lot of data to the NSA and they didn't even know.

Of course, they upped their game since then, but their sheer size will always make them an interesting target and they have to fail only once.

Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by jesterson on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @05:28AM (#23625902)
Thank you. I am purposely avoiding convo to be channeled into discussion of this or that incident - those who want to dig into the matter they can find plenty and draw their own conclusions.
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by jesterson on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @05:26AM (#23625885)
If google makes you feel more secure that doesn't mean it's secure. Feeling secure perhaps works for you but if we would assess how they deal with our data they would be quite far from pool of companies we can trust with data.

And that's only based on what we know currently from security incidents.

Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by kinkrtyavimoodh on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:17PM (#23631751)
I have worked for a few years at Google and have a decent insight into all the processes that go into keeping user data secure. It's perfectly fine to have your reservations but so far as I am concerned, I sleep well.

I don't share the same confidence for all my data that is floating around carelessly in some government spreadsheet somewhere, though.

Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by bad_user on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:42AM (#23625210)
What security incidents?
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by TazeTSchnitzel on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @08:22AM (#23612902)
IIRC you can thank Mozilla for that setting!
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by jacquesm on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @05:49AM (#23626045)
The fact that that does not default to 'off' is quite telling.
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by bad_user on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:55AM (#23625309)
There are multiple things you can do with GA of course, like IP anonymization, setting a smaller expiration date for that cookie, etc, however trust in Google Analytics is low and that won't change.

Also a lot of websites, especially personal ones, are in violation of ePrivacy. You may not need GDPR consent for analytics, qualifying for a legitimate interest, but you still need a cookie banner when dropping cookies for analytics.

The market is clear about it, analytics have to be first party and privacy preserving.

Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by bad_user on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:50AM (#23625270)
Collecting server logs doesn't work if you host your website behind Cloudflare or another CDN.

You can setup some sort of pixel that's never cached and that transmits the page via query params, but then the implementation isn't reliable and a PITA.

If you have your own server, something like Matomo.org works better.

Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by jgrahamc on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:57AM (#23625323)
Or you could just use Cloudflare logs. It's far more reliable to use log information than JavaScript given the number of people who use blockers of some sort.
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by bad_user on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:59AM (#23625340)
Is that available for Free and Pro users? I think that's only available for Enterprise customers, no?
Re:Safari now blocks Google Analytics on sites, new Privacy ... by sgtfrankieboy on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @04:01AM (#23625357)
You need CloudFlare Enterprise to get those logs.