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Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday June 21, 2020 @10:38AM (#23592234)
I think the problem with your argument is that most people don't think those things would apply to them, or they wouldn't care if they did. And in their defense, at least in the the US, most of the examples you give are hypotheticals. Possible rejoinders:

1. In the US, the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act already prohibits this. For other things, like "are you a skydiver", the insurance company already has the right to ask you that.

2. I mean, sure, I'm sure I've broken some laws, but I can't think of any examples of overly agressive prosecutions for people who weren't already guilty of bad shit.

3. I mean, people are already used to creepy hypertargeted Facebook ads, most of them have don't really care anymore.

4. I mean sure, but how does this affect me?

5. This just sounds like a hand-wavy slippery slope argument.

I think the issue for most people in the US is that they still fundamentally believe that the justice system is generally "just", at least with respect to themselves, though that is obviously changing. Contrast that with Germany, where people are vividly aware of what happens when the government uses personal data nefariously.

Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by jkhdigital on Sunday June 21, 2020 @10:52AM (#23592314)
Your response to point 2 made me gasp. Just watch a few episodes of any of the many true crime false conviction series on Netflix. Unscrupulous prosecutors are not rare, and it does not matter who you are—if you get caught in the crosshairs you could go to prison for a crime you didn’t commit, or be coerced to provide false witness against a friend or loved one for a crime they didn’t commit.
Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by zeroonetwothree on Sunday June 21, 2020 @10:59AM (#23592349)
Netflix is definitely a reliable and objective source for crime data.
Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by briefcomment on Sunday June 21, 2020 @11:13AM (#23592428)
Fact is stranger than fiction.
Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by treis on Sunday June 21, 2020 @12:06PM (#23592797)
I watched that series and if we were in a ubiquitous surveillance state few if any of those people would have been convicted. They would have had video/phone tracking to verify their alibi and/or video of the crime showing they didn't do it.
Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by free_rms on Sunday June 21, 2020 @12:18PM (#23592905)
That's making a big assumption that everyone has equal access to surveillance data and that most if not all players are fair-mindedly searching for the truth.

If you assume the other way, pervasive surveillance makes a frame-up easier.

Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by treis on Sunday June 21, 2020 @12:24PM (#23592952)
I live in a country where the accused has equal access to the evidence.

And your rejoinder doesn't make sense. If you were being railroaded for a crime video showing that you didn't do it cant hurt you.

Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by rectang on Sunday June 21, 2020 @12:58PM (#23593271)
In many US jurisdictions, the decision over what police body cam footage to release is left to the police themselves. For example:

https://www.denverpost.com/2019/11/18/body-camera-aurora-pol...

> Police Chief Nick Metz said he wants to release body camera footage from the August death of Elijah McClain to lend more transparency to the investigation. But three months later, police still have it — advised by the district attorney’s office to keep it in house.

Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by goatinaboat on Sunday June 21, 2020 @02:02PM (#23593847)
In many US jurisdictions, the decision over what police body cam footage to release is left to the police themselves

In the UK as well, there have been several cases where the police have chosen only to disclose “relevant” evidence, when the existence of additional evidence becomes known the case collapses.

Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by treis on Sunday June 21, 2020 @01:09PM (#23593385)
I said "the accused", not everyone. If you are charged with a crime and if that footage could be evidence then it is required that the state turn it over to the accused.
Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by heavyset_go on Sunday June 21, 2020 @11:01PM (#23597070)
Only evidence produced in court. Body cameras can "shut off" or "break", the full footage can be destroyed, etc.
Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by a1369209993 on Sunday June 21, 2020 @04:28PM (#23595132)
> I live in a country where the accused has equal access to the evidence.

Really? Where? Because in most countries with laws requiring that, police and prosecutors regularly ignore said laws with impunity.

Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by rectang on Sunday June 21, 2020 @11:14AM (#23592430)
For many people in the U.S., overzealous prosecutors are their allies so long as the people they are prosecuting who are "already guilty of bad shit" belong to undesirable demographics. Prosecutors and their selective enforcement efforts are central to suppressing minority votes through felony disenfranchisement, for instance in Florida.

I wonder how the arguments against surveillance capitalism poll across targeted minorities vs. the general population. I speculate that sentiments diverge in the same direction as sentiments towards the police.

Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by thatoneuser on Sunday June 21, 2020 @11:47AM (#23592638)
I'm sure there are bad prosecutors, but Netflix is hardly a source to look into something like this. They tend to make very compelling, but obviously biased, documentaries.

But I agree with your sentiment otherwise.

Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by ensignavenger on Sunday June 21, 2020 @11:11AM (#23592415)
Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday June 21, 2020 @11:18AM (#23592452)
This is a great example, though, of why most people won't care. Most people will look at that and think "Swartz hacked in to a system, stole data, and distributed it for free. Sure, the prosecution may have been harsh, but I don't go around hacking into systems."

To be clear, I don't agree with that, or any of the 5 points I put above. But I still think it's important to emphasize that 90+ percent of people will look at that and similar cases and think "that situation doesn't apply to me."

Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by heavyset_go on Sunday June 21, 2020 @10:57PM (#23597058)
> 1. In the US, the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act already prohibits this.

That only applies to genetic data. There are several ways for your insurer to find out everything wrong with you, especially when many medical practices sell your data. It does not cover any other type of insurance, other than health insurance. Genetic information can be used to discriminate in disability insurance, long-term care insurance, life insurance etc.

Re:Losing the war against surveillance capitalism letting Bi... by hoorayimhelping on Sunday June 21, 2020 @10:55AM (#23592340)
>I think the issue for most people in the US is that they still fundamentally believe that the justice system is generally "just", at least with respect to themselves, though that is obviously changing.

I think you highlighted a bigger core issue: people think that the past was somehow better and what they're seeing in their time is unique. The justice system isn't changing, it's been like this for at least a century, probably longer. America hasn't just elected its first rabble rousing demagogue for a president and now the country is going to shit, this has happened before. Multiple times.

This is worrisome to me because it causes emotional overreactions to situations that aren't really that unprecedented. We elected Donald Trump, and obviously we are special so we have to make sure this doesn't happen again. The punchline is that we are ignorant of the past and are unaware that the republic has carried on just fine after previously awful presidents, and without that knowledge, we may make a number of bad decisions that negatively affect the future of this country.