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Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by philshem on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:09AM (#23550894)
https://lichess.org is fantastic for online chess.

But we need a lichess for Backgammon! Backgammon has tons of strategy but also has the element of chance because of the dice roll - anyone can win anygame (in theory, at least).

There is even a lichess forum post about making lichess for backgammon: https://lichess.org/forum/lichess-feedback/backgammon-clone-...

Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by bschne on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:23AM (#23551051)
Playing chess was only a brief phase for me, I never really got into it, but I love lichess - it's open source, completely free, doesn't run ads, and the UX is amazing, it just works perfectly and there are no unnecessary gimmicks. One of those few exemplary projects to take a big chunk of inspiration from, if you ask me!
Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by shpongled on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:35PM (#23554198)
Lichess is the best 'web app' I've used, bar none.
Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by noir_lord on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:37PM (#23554241)
Guy behind it is lovely to talk to as well and the iPhone and android clients are pretty much best in class in addition to the web interface been best in class as well.
Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by lgl on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:29AM (#23551115)
lichess.org's creator, Thibault Duplessis has an hn account [0] and has made some posts around here (although his last post appears to have been in 2015).

The entire thing is also free, open-source and with a very diverse tech stack behind it that includes Scala, Redis, MongoDB, Elasticsearch, Typescript, websockets, nginx and more [1]

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=ornicar

[1] https://github.com/ornicar/lila

Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by grantismo on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:27PM (#23554092)
Great tech talk from Thibault about lichess: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHP5AdRlRNY
Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by labelbias on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @06:27PM (#23557555)
I got hooked on chess because of Lichess. The interface is well done and it's so easy to play. Something about it feels much better than chess.com. Unfortunately, I got heavily addicted and had to stop.

Although, I had so much fun. I was playing mostly openings with 2nd move being the one with queen. Got to about 1700 rating on that site in bullet (3-5 min game). This was the result of about 1 year of heavy addiction (2-10 hours of chess per day).

Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by searchableguy on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:42AM (#23551250)
There is a hn chess group on lichess too. Although it's dead. Wonder if someone could revive it.

https://lichess.org/team/hacker-news

Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by octygen on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:53AM (#23551362)
I'd more than happily contribute to such a project! Backgammon is to chess what boxing is to fencing and I love boxing.
Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by philshem on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:34AM (#23551906)
there are lots of existing code that one could build on (e.g. https://github.com/quasoft/backgammonjs) but it probably makes sense to start from scratch, and use the gnubg smart game format ".sgf"

https://www.gnu.org/software/gnubg/manual/gnubg.html

Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by philshem on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:40AM (#23551976)
self-reply with this great NYer profile (2013) about backgammon and all its weirdness

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/05/13/the-chaos-of-t...

Sadly, Falafel (Matvey Natanzon) passed away in March: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/03/nyregion/matvey-natanzon-...

Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by conistonwater on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:33AM (#23551159)
> anyone can win anygame (in theory, at least).

Is this supposed to be a good thing in a game? It's kind of like the opposite of being skill-based. E.g., poker has this "problem", and it's a huge part of the game and its skill, but it's not literally a good thing that "anyone can win once". At worst, it just encourages gambling, at best it makes results more random than necessary to establish skill differences.

Bridge also has this property that every beginner can win, and the main consequence I've seen when teaching people is that it trips people up when their understanding of probability theory isn't up to snuff already before they start learning, they end up having way too much trouble distinguishing success and failure.

There's a theory that one of the reasons chess is so highly-developed with so many children playing at such a high level is precisely that not anyone can win, so people just get so much more feedback on their decision making.

Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by yoDibly on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:44AM (#23551270)
>Is this supposed to be a good thing in a game?

Absolutely. Maybe not for a sport, but unless you're talking about the pure competitive aspect of it, most games benefit from having that level of accessibility. Bad players need to feel like they can win games. Even if they don't know how, they'll feel like they can win again.

One of the big draws to any game is the idea that you aren't just measuring your skill/experience at the game against everyone else playing, it's like when everyone comes over to play Super Smash Bros but you can tell the host has been playing on his own to practice, it takes a lot of the fun out of it. You can also use the example in SSB of playing with items on. Sure, really competitive players will hate the randomness that comes from items but the whole point of that randomness is to give everyone else a fighting chance.

I guess it depends on what you want out of a "game". If you're only looking at it through the lens of Chess where luck is virtually nonexistent and skill is the ultimate deciding factor, you're going to take a lot of issue with anything that upsets that balance. But, in practice, most people play games for enjoyment, not for sport.

Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by m12k on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:56AM (#23551397)
Elements of chance can both make a game more accessible to beginners and raise the skill ceiling fro pros at the same time. It's more accessible, because a beginner player might still get lucky and win through pure chance. But it also raises the skill ceiling, because you need to work with probability on top of strategy. You might sometimes make the right move and still lose. And you might sometimes make the wrong move and still win. But that also makes it more challenging to improve above a certain level, since you need a deeper analysis than 'did I win?' to understand what you did right and wrong. It does mean that unlike chess, where the superior player will likely win 100/100 matches, a superior backgammon player might only win 60-70 games out of 100. Learning to combine strategy and probability is valuable, and arguably maybe even more applicable to the real world than the pure strategy of chess.
Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by andrepd on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:46AM (#23552775)
Not quite. Take bridge for example. The fact that it is not a perfect information game is what makes it one of the most interesting and deep games in the world. Suddenly there's a whole layer of deduction, imperfect information gathering, information exchange, etc.
Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by LargeWu on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:45AM (#23551290)
You seem to view "it promotes gambling" as a negative. I happen to think backgammon is a great game precisely for this reason.

The fundamental skill in backgammon is managing variance. Since there are many possible outcomes of the dice that you can't control, your job as a player is to put your checkers into position such that you're maximizing good outcomes and minimizing bad outcomes.

Yes, in any giving game, a poor player might roll very well and win that game, but over a large sample, the better player will absolutely dominate.

Backgammon also has the advantage over poker in the sense that it's still fun to play in the absence of gambling. Poker is dreadfully boring if no money is on the line.

Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by billfruit on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:32AM (#23551873)
But it also give a player a fighting chance even if they are behind in material. In top flight chess there is no spectacular against the odds, coming from behind victories as is seen in many other games and sports.
Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by zem on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:37PM (#23554227)
as a competitive scrabble player yes, that's one of the great things about the game. it makes it possible to have exciting games against both stronger and weaker players, because there is still that element of luck that makes it possible for either side to win regardless of rating difference. i've won individual games against world champions, which is something that could never happen in chess.
Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by pakitan on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:33AM (#23551151)
Doesn't backgammon lose a lot of its appeal if you're not playing for money? Kinda like poker.
Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by LargeWu on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:20AM (#23551693)
Not really. There are a lot of strategic decisions to make, and those decisions aren't about money. In poker, almost all of the important decisions are directly about wagering. When wagering has no real value, neither do the decisions.

Also, in backgammon, you still need to actually win. Contrast this with poker, where oftentimes when playing for money, you don't actually want to reach the end of the hand (i.e. showdown). Which, again, is pointless if there's no money involved since always calling is your optimal strategy.

Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by dfan on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:31PM (#23553323)
You do lose all the strategic decisions involving the doubling cube, though.
Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by LargeWu on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @02:01PM (#23554543)
Assuming you are playing individual games, yes. But, if you are playing a series of games up to X points, the cube does come into play somewhat.
Re:A grandmaster who got Twitch hooked on chess by philshem on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:02PM (#23552942)
Are you thinking about blackjack?