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Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by pentae on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:28AM (#23549486)
Do you think your desire for convenience should outweigh the benefits to users/devs who want freedom of choice?
Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by photonios on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @07:25AM (#23550154)
Yes, if their convenience comes at a cost to my convenience. I pay a premium for my iPhone and various other Apple devices.

The fact that there is only one AppStore, controlled by a single party is a feature for me that I am happy to pay for.

If there's is more than one party which can install apps on my device, I have to worry about which party to trust etc. The same applies to payments.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by robert_foss on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @07:34AM (#23550193)
If you trust the AppStore, just use that.

If other people want to use other sources, that shouldn't affect you.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by Nebasuke on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:55AM (#23552157)
I'm not saying I agree with Apple's approach, but it does affect you.

Just by having alternative sources, developers might choose to only be available on those sources, whether it's for a better revenue cut or because of their principles.

See for example what's going on with exclusives for Epic store and Steam. Whether that's a good or bad thing is a different question.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by Steko on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @08:24AM (#23550514)
It certainly affects you if:

(1) Apple, seeing drastically reduced app revenue, stops investing as much in the app store, dev tools, etc. Or increases their hardware prices;

(2) third party stores pay for exclusive apps;

(3) malware is installed by people with your contact info and communications;

(4) even if no intent to use, the malware risk is there and you're a few drunk clicks from losing your bank account.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by robert_foss on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:44AM (#23552029)
#1 Apple makes enough money. If they don't want to support their app store, than that is choice they're making.

#2 Frankly this is much like the situation we're in now. Only that we there are no other options. This eventuality is surely less bad than the current actuality.

#3 Malware is already installed by people you are in contact with. And nothing prevents a 3rd party store from having equally rigorous testing as Apple.

#4 You're a few drunk swipes away from emptying your credit card today.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by Nebasuke on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:06AM (#23552298)
Sure, I can understand those arguments in favour of having a 3rd party store, but that's not what the parent is arguing, nor what you said in your original post. All of these do affect the user. You think it would be a better ecosystem, but some users would not agree it's a strictly better approach. I for one don't.
Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by GVIrish on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @08:24AM (#23550509)
The issue at hand here is even for a company that has an app in the App Store that exposes no way to buy a subscription in the app at all, Apple will force you to put in the Apple IAP option, of which they will take a 30% cut.

And yet, they make exceptions for big and powerful companies like Netflix or Google.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by ryanwaggoner on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @08:44AM (#23550702)
Source? I’ve been an iOS dev since 2010 and I haven’t seen this happen. I’m not saying it hasn’t, especially in isolated incidents, but I’d like to see some examples.
Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by GVIrish on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:52AM (#23552135)
That is literally the issue that Hey is having right now. They have provided no means of subscribing inside the app, but now Apple is telling them that they'll remove the app from the App Store if they don't add Apple IAP. Meanwhile, Basecamp has operated the same way for years. The rationale Apple gave was that Basecamp is primarily a business app, but if that is the case, how does Gmail get away with the same thing?

Meanwhile Netflix, Gmail, Uber, and a couple of other big apps don't use the Apple IAP system.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by ryanwaggoner on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:22AM (#23552500)
This sounds exactly like the isolated example i was talking about. Apple is clearly in the wrong here, and this will get resolved. There are tens of thousands of apps out there that don’t offer IAP that you need a subscription purchased elsewhere to use.

Again, Apple is in the wrong here, but this is not a good example of a widespread pattern imo. Not something worth an antitrust case over.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by rahkiin on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:32AM (#23549508)
If a developer does not want their product sold to customers of Walmart because Walmart takes % percentage and has a certain set of rules, then the developer can go away and not sell to Walmarts customers. Same analogy works with Xbox/PlayStation customer base.
Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by GVIrish on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @08:21AM (#23550489)
The problem is that Google and Apple are a duopoly and as such both have outsized market power. And with that outsized power, Apple has regularly abused app businesses trying to make money in the App Store.

From blocking apps that replicate core functionality to the whole IAP shakedown Apple has used their market power in capricious and self-serving ways that have gotten other companies in anti-trust hot water in the past.

Having a curated market is fine, but when you use that market curation to undercut sellers in that market to your own benefit you start getting into trouble. Then, when that market controls the lion's share of revenue in that type of market, regulators will eventually start firing up lawsuits.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by pentae on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:41AM (#23549559)
Walmart is one of thousands of stores where you can purchase goods. XBox/Playstations are a niche recreational device for gaming, not an essential device used by everyone to procure goods and services and conduct business.
Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by jfk13 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @07:04AM (#23550020)
An iPhone is now an essential device used by everyone?

It's a wonder I am still surviving.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by pentae on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @07:12AM (#23550075)
Smartphones are now pretty essential. You can't even enter stores in my country without scanning a QR code for COVID tracking
Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by pwinnski on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:46AM (#23552778)
Parent didn't say "smartphone," they said "iPhone." You can use an Android phone and sideload and use whatever payment method you want.
Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by jasode on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @07:45AM (#23550255)
>Smartphones are now pretty essential.

If you didn't notice, you switched the conversation from "Apple iPhone" to "smartphone".

In any case, I didn't get an iPhone until 2012 and for the entire 7+ years of ownership, I have never installed a single app on it. I just use the plain vanilla functionality. An Apple product like the iPhone and the Apple curated App Store is not essential to life.

About 90% of my friends & family use Android (the more popular smartphones) because they cost less than Apple.

EDIT to downvoters:

- gp comment (rahkiin) of Walmart-restrictions analogy is about Apple (not "smartphones" in general)

- followup comment (jfk13) is also about Apple iPhone and not smartphones

- pentae's comment that switches the subject from "iPhone" to "smartphones" ... to try an win an argument just confuses the thread

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by harpratap on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @08:16AM (#23550451)
You are just being pedantic now. It was pretty clear what he/she meant. Smartphones are a necessity now.
Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by jasode on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @08:44AM (#23550693)
>You are just being pedantic now. It was pretty clear what he/she meant. Smartphones are a necessity now.

It's not pedantic in this case because the raison d'etre of this thread is Apple's restrictions (including sideloading).

With that specific context, an "Apple iPhone" is not equivalent to "smartphone" and pentae's comment that mixes up the 2 is muddying up the discussion. The ability for 3rd party devs to sideload apps on my Apple iPhone is not essential to life.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by aspenmayer on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:04AM (#23550850)
It is essential to liberty, which is why the Library of Congress has made exemptions to DMCA for jailbreaking. It’s not a question of life, but of the quality thereof. People fully control devices they own.
Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by wayneftw on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:30AM (#23551122)
Automobiles have plenty of restrictions on how they can be built, marketed and sold even though no single brand is essential to every single person.

If enough people want changes around how smartphones and smartphone platforms operate, we'll get new legislation for it, if it doesn't already exist.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by pentae on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:22AM (#23551739)
So could you tell us how an iPhone is not a smartphone?
Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by jasode on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:41AM (#23551997)
Yes, the iPhone _is_ a "smartphone" but that's not the point for this particular thread. Yes, sometimes we do treat "Apple_iPhone"==synonym=="smartphone" for simplified discussion but sometimes we do not. This thread is one of those cases where we do not.

To recap the context ...

- thread article title: "Dear _Apple_: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust..."

The title is "Dear Apple", not "Dear all _smartphone_ manufacturers". The reason for this thread's existence is making a distinction between Apple vs smartphones. From the very beginning, our comments and replies have to continue that distinction for this particular thread.

- gp comment (rahkiin) continued that distinction of iPhone-vs-smartphones with the Walmart-restrictions analogy. I.e. "Walmart"="Apple" and presumably "Target/Amazon/GooglePixel/etc"="other non-Apple smartphones"

- followup comment (jfk13) continued that distinction of iPhone-vs-smartphones

- your reply (pentae) comment that switches the subject from "iPhone" to "smartphones" ... is a non-sequitur. It looks like you're trying to win an argument instead of replying to their specific point about Apple restrictions and developers having the ability to choose a different marketplace (e.g. the Android marketplace). The thread+rahkiin+jfk13 were talking about Apple iPhone and not all smartphones in general. You don't have to agree with rahkiin+jfk13 but your comment's switch to generalized "smartphone" isn't engaging with what they actually wrote.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by iguy on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:45AM (#23549583)
Not OP, but I share the desire for convenience.

This convenience is only available to me because there is a large customer base which companies can't access any other way.

They have varying reasons for wanting an iphone, each of which alone would not (I think) form a big enough pool to persuade companies to listen. Or the privacy conscious are tempted to make an exception when (like OP) they badly need something to work right now... or just don't have time to vet every company... and divided we fall.

And I'm happy to pay for this. I probably spent double what I would have paid for an android phone. I have not spent close to that much again on apps. But the difference between $5 and $10 inside the app store is (for me) much smaller than the hurdle of having to go to some other dodgy payment gateway & give them my card.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by pentae on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:46AM (#23549589)
And if side loading was possible, what makes you think that your App Store experience would suffer?
Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by iguy on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @07:35AM (#23550209)
I guess my claim is that, if side-loading were common, then lots of apps which now play by the rules would (eventually) be replaced by ones that don't.

There are lots of iphone apps from companies I would never trust to install a real app on my computer. I'm glad they exist, and are so firmly kept under control. (And I'm sure their makers grumble about this.)

I also buy lots of things from companies I would never trust with my credit card details.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:13AM (#23550941)
No one would take away your right not to trust such companies your card details. Unfortunately, you are OK with the fact that some people can't exercise their will to trust said companies and use their software, even if they badly need it.
Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by iguy on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:48AM (#23551309)
Different rules lead to different ecosystems. My claim here is that, under anything-goes rules, some options I like having would probably go away.

And while I understand the temptation to complain about a 30% cut, it's not so obvious to me that sellers would make more money under anything-goes rules, in a lower-trust ecosystem.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:03AM (#23551496)
My problem with Apple and iOS is not a 30% cut at all. It's the push notifications policy and monopoly on app distribution. I want apps that run in the background. I want apps that have reliable and fast push notifications without those recently imposed restrictions on the only type of notifications that worked well in iOS 13 [1] (VoIP ones), etc.

It's my device! If i want to run some app in the background, I'm OK if it uses battery faster. If Apple wants to show how they care for the battery life of my device, they should show me the warning and stats, which app costs me what, not cut off my ability to run the app in the background at all.

[1] https://www.macrumors.com/2019/08/06/ios-13-voip-background-...

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by iguy on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:26AM (#23552551)
I guess I'm happy they established a strong norm early on that apps don't get to run in the background. This was a big change from PC apps. But I agree they could now offer a bit more flexibility. (And demand that, if I refuse permission, all other functionality must still work. As they do for many features.)
Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @04:05PM (#23556070)
Oh boy. Back in the 90s multitasking in Windows and OS/2 was such a HUGE life-improving step forward from a single-task DOS that I'm SHOCKED that anyone would be so happy to put their old shackles on again. First iPhones couldn't even play music in the background, can you imagine?
Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by iguy on Thursday June 18, 2020 @07:29AM (#23562032)
But there was also the need to re-install the OS because everything you added somehow got its fingers into everything else until it was impossibly slow. Even if you were unusually cautious about how many toolbars to install.

Phone apps were a new art form, quite unlike 90s programs. Both had serious resource constraints, but trying out a badly written iphone app couldn't result in being unable to make a phone call that afternoon.

Re:Dear Apple: Here’s How to Stop the Antitrust Investigations by photonios on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @07:22AM (#23550137)
It wouldn't, but eventually somehow is going to find a way to sneakily install apps on my grandma's phone that are no good. I like the current experience because it keeps the really bad stuff out.