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Re:Avro Arrow – The record-breaking jet which still haunts a... by 908B64B197 on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @06:00PM (#23544795)
> Similar but lesser feelings for the A220, sold by Bombardier for $1 to Airbus because Boeing lobbied for a 219.63% tariff on it.

It's arguably worst. The Avro was a cool paper project (it is ultimately unknown if it could even achieve the projected performance since no flights were performed anywhere close to the claimed speeds), while the A220 was a complete airliner project with a production line. The Avro didn't serve any purpose, it was rendered obsolete by ICBMs and 50's soviet technology, while the A220 has $52 billion dollars worth of orders as of 2020.

While there was very little the Canadian government could do to save the Arrow, other than maybe building it as a training aircraft, it was 100% possible for the Government to save Bombardier and the A220 program. Of course, the company being headquartered in Quebec made it politically impossible.

Re:Avro Arrow – The record-breaking jet which still haunts a... by louniks on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @08:10PM (#23546002)
Playing devil's advocate for a bit, would the A220 have accumulated so many orders had it not been backed by Airbus? The program was clearly in trouble when Airbus took over, which may have discouraged airlines from taking a chance on a great aircraft, but whose manufacturer ran the risk of running out of money to keep the program going.
Re:Avro Arrow – The record-breaking jet which still haunts a... by arcticbull on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @08:52PM (#23546372)
> Playing devil's advocate for a bit, would the A220 have accumulated so many orders had it not been backed by Airbus?

Yes, totally. Delta alone had ordered 75 CS100's [1] and were deeply involved in the tariff dispute as a result. It's a unique plane -- in size class, in passenger comfort and in fuel economy. Airlines realized that and were buying it up like hotcakes. Neither Airbus nor Boeing had competitive aircraft, and neither really did Embraer. It's closer to the Sukhoi SuperJet and some of the Comacs, but reliable [2], and domestic.

The only reason Airbus got it was they offered up their Mobile, Alabama assembly plant as a way of skirting the tariffs that never materialized.

> The program was clearly in trouble when Airbus took over, which may have discouraged airlines from taking a chance on a great aircraft, but whose manufacturer ran the risk of running out of money to keep the program going.

The program wasn't itself in any trouble except for the later-ruled-illegal tariffs the US tried to impose at Boeing's request.

[1] https://news.delta.com/tags/bombardier-cs100

[2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-18/mexico-s-...

Re:Avro Arrow – The record-breaking jet which still haunts a... by 908B64B197 on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @09:21PM (#23546590)
> Playing devil's advocate for a bit, would the A220 have accumulated so many orders had it not been backed by Airbus?

Of course not! But that's not seeing the bigger picture: It's always safe to buy from Boeing/Airbus because you know that these two companies are backed by their respective governments. Same thing goes for Embraer.

Re:Avro Arrow – The record-breaking jet which still haunts a... by walrus01 on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @08:24PM (#23546127)
The government already shoveled a lot of money into Bombardier to keep it going as a company, many times, in the years prior to the C-series program's sale to Airbus.

Google "bombardier bailout"

Re:Avro Arrow – The record-breaking jet which still haunts a... by arcticbull on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @08:50PM (#23546345)
Hold on, that aside, the C-series wasn't "sold" to Airbus, it was gifted, for $1. That was entirely due to the US governments attempt to step in at the request of Boeing. The tariffs initially issued scared the pants off of Bombardier who gave the program away in lieu of seeing it wither and die by virtue of being locked out of North American aviation.

The US ended up backing off the tariffs because they were garbage and totally unfounded.

No further bailouts were needed. And in fact, in Canada, only Bombardier really lost. Investissement Québec retains a 25% stake in the A220 [1].

Globally, Boeing ended up the biggest loser for their inane meddling, as they don't have an aircraft that competes with the A220 -- and they gave one to Airbus free of charge. They then tried to cover their bumbling by trying to buy the regional jet arm of Embraer -- which fell through due to the COVID crisis.

Losers: Bombardier, Boeing.

Winners: Airbus, Investissment Quebec.

[1] https://www.investquebec.com/international/en/press-releases...

Re:Avro Arrow – The record-breaking jet which still haunts a... by 908B64B197 on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @09:25PM (#23546628)
And Canada as a whole. The profits from the A220 will finance a new generations of planes and groundbreaking engineering work... from Europeans engineers in Europe!

Canada will be left out as a sub-contractor. It has about 650 total orders, and Airbus estimates 6'000 planes throughout the plane's 20 years lifecycle. All that because the federal government simply wouldn't intervene.

Re:Avro Arrow – The record-breaking jet which still haunts a... by Gravityloss on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:14AM (#23549393)
Are you sure? The plane is viewed as being advanced, next gen of sorts, and could influence future Airbus efforts a lot.

And anyway, Bombardier was doing some operations outside Canada, like the wing in Northern Ireland.

Re:Avro Arrow – The record-breaking jet which still haunts a... by 908B64B197 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @03:54PM (#23555956)
Bombardier operates globally (it has operations in a few provinces, the United States and Europe), but my understanding was that the A220 program's engineering was mostly done in Canada.

I'm afraid it might stop being the case.

Re:Avro Arrow – The record-breaking jet which still haunts a... by 908B64B197 on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @09:28PM (#23546649)
You aren't wrong.

The aerospace sector has a long history of getting subsidized through either government help or military contracts. That's been true for Airbus, Boeing, Lockheed, Embraer. It's a strategic choice and investment that the Canadian government simply wasn't willing to make.