News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by p0llard on Saturday June 13, 2020 @11:33AM (#23510137)
Within the EU, GDPR seems to have an interesting impact on how companies/organisations respond to cyber attacks like this: if they don't pay the ransom, the data is leaked, and they are now liable under GDPR and will likely have to pay a (very large) fine to the regulator for the data leak. Attackers are surely savvy to this, and should set the ransom to be slightly lower than what they estimate the fine would be, which 'motivates' the organisation to pay the ransom.

In theory however, even if the organisation recovers the data by paying the ransom, they should still report this as a data breach, and would probably be fined by the regulator even though the data was recovered, since the breach still occurred in the first place.

I'd be very interested to know the impact the new California state laws on privacy have had on UC's decision to (seemingly) pay the ransom; I'm not based in the US, nor am I familiar with the jurisdiction, but I imagine that this will have been taken into account and might explain why UC acted differently to MSU here.

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by chmod775 on Saturday June 13, 2020 @12:00PM (#23510350)
You don't see the risk of fines as an incentive for companies to keep data secure in the first place, or not keep it at all?

I'm curious: Do you know of any cases of the scenario you described actually happening?

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by PeterisP on Saturday June 13, 2020 @06:17PM (#23513287)
They're definitely required to report the data breach even if they pay the ransom - in fact, since negotiating the ransom in large cases usually has taken quite a few days, they're required to report the data breach before paying the ransom or even deciding whether they'll pay the ransom or not, as they're required to report the breach to the controlling authority not later than 72 hours after having become aware of it.

Paying a ransom with the intent of attempting to hide the breach is very risky, since that's strictly illegal and hard to accomplish as it's hard to ensure that everyone involved, up to the lowest level of IT helpdesk technicians who might have noticed it, will forever keep secret the fact that the breach occured.

The GDPR has been here for two years already; the hypothetical scenario you describe has discussed but has not shown itself in practice.

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by p0llard on Saturday June 13, 2020 @07:08PM (#23513627)
> The GDPR has been here for two years already; the hypothetical scenario you describe has discussed but has not shown itself in practice.

Would we actually know if it had happened though? Or are you assuming that it would simply be infeasible to keep under wraps?

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by PeterisP on Saturday June 13, 2020 @07:21PM (#23513712)
The hypothetical scenario of "if they don't pay the ransom, the data is leaked, and they are now liable under GDPR and will likely have to pay a (very large) fine to the regulator for the data leak." has not materialized. The grandparent post is based on the thieves making an empty threat.

If criminals compromise your systems and steal data that you are legitimately storing in a reasonable manner, then the breach by itself is not a justification for any major fines under GDPR - but not reporting a data breach definitely is punishable.

Here's a recent example of a data breach in a telecom company- https://www.timelex.eu/en/blog/belgian-data-protection-autho... - "the data breach was correctly reported and that the company had taken appropriate organisational and technical measures. A data breach therefore does not necessarily give rise to a fine."

The only scenario where this threat might be real is if the breach would expose some previous wrongdoings, e.g. if the company was collecting the data in an illegal manner and had kept that fact hidden until the breach, if then, sure, that could be a valid basis for blackmail because the breach would suddenly expose the fact that you deserved some regulatory action long ago. Of course, any disgruntled employee also could try the same blackmail. However, if you're a legitimate company doing everything as required per law (including proper notification of data breaches), then the consequences of publishing that data would involve reputation costs and perhaps some civil claims for damages, but not any GDPR fines.

There's a potential for fines if breach happened because of your gross negligence, there's some precedent for that - for example, the Mariott data breach case. But again, the fines and their amount aren't automatic (the law just sets a ceiling), administrative proceedings take into account the circumstances and intent, all the largest fines assigned so far are significantly below the maximum. However, we should expect that the scenario of intentionally paying a ransom to hide the breach and "avoid the fines" would actually result in more severe penalties (because it checks pretty much all the boxes for aggravating circumstances) while properly handling a breach would result in reduced fines even if serious negligence was involved.

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by Angostura on Saturday June 13, 2020 @12:05PM (#23510390)
> Within the EU, GDPR seems to have an interesting impact on how companies/organisations respond to cyber attacks like this: if they don't pay the ransom, the data is leaked, and they are now liable under GDPR and will likely have to pay a (very large) fine to the regulator for the data leak.

Can you cite any examples where The threat of GDPR has contributed to the payment of fines

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by p0llard on Saturday June 13, 2020 @12:10PM (#23510429)
No I can't, and I don't see how anyone would know of such an example unless they were directly involved; if such occurrences were known publicly, the regulator would also know, which defeats the entire point.

I don't have any idea regarding the scale of the impact laws like GDPR have had on cybercrime; I'm just pointing out that there's clearly an interaction (and I'm not the first person to say this by any means), and that I would be interested to know whether the California privacy laws had any impact on UC's decision.

I'm a big supporter of GDPR by the way; this isn't an "anti-GDPR fantasy", just my observation on a potential interaction between GDPR and cyber crime.

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by closeparen on Saturday June 13, 2020 @07:37PM (#23513809)
>if they don't pay the ransom, the data is leaked

The ransomware threat is usually to destroy the data. That is obviously a problem but it's not a privacy problem.

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by wrycoder on Sunday June 14, 2020 @11:51AM (#23518592)
“ In late 2019, hackers using ransomware began not just blocking access to information but threatening to share it on the dark web -- harming the reputation of the organization or institution involved.”
Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by sukilot on Saturday June 13, 2020 @11:57AM (#23510322)
Why does anyone stay in business in the EU? I wouldn't run a store if getting robbed earned me a fine.
Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by luesterklemme on Saturday June 13, 2020 @12:02PM (#23510367)
Because a lot of people just get this whole thing wrong. This whole discussion got poisoned by fear mongering and not understanding of the actual rules. Yes you can be liable to a huge amount but you will be only be hit by that if you are either working with malicious intend or objectively don't give a shit about data security and privacy of your users.

There is no such thing as "estimated fine amount" to base you ransom on. It depends on how important the company treated its security and how obvious the data leak is.

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by p0llard on Saturday June 13, 2020 @12:04PM (#23510380)
> It depends on how important the company treated its security and how obvious the data leak is.

Indeed. Which allows an attacker who is familiar with previous regulatory action to estimate the fine based on the specific circumstances involved in their attack.

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by luesterklemme on Saturday June 13, 2020 @12:07PM (#23510401)
Different sector, different country, different regulatory body, different regulator. Maybe the fines are comparable but I have my doubts that this could ever be a viable strategy.

But in any case that is not the problem of the regulations.

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by p0llard on Saturday June 13, 2020 @12:19PM (#23510492)
I'm not convinced by this; if a company was approached by an attacker who threatened to

a) Release stolen data;

b) Anonymously supply the regulator with full details of the leak

unless a ransom was paid, I imagine that the threat of an audit and potential regulatory action would be enough to persuade the company to pay the ransom if it believed the cost of the ransom to be lower than the cost of an investigation by the regulator.

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by luesterklemme on Saturday June 13, 2020 @12:58PM (#23510788)
The incentive of the GDPR is for the companies to place inherent value in their data safety. So either the companies can pay and not invest in future safety to come out cheaper in the short run with the added risk of future attacks. Or they could cooperate, proactively reach out to regulators with a plan to improve and pay the fine.
Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by p0llard on Saturday June 13, 2020 @01:09PM (#23510885)
Yes, they could.

Or they could pay the ransom, which they deem to be less expensive than dealing with the regulator, and improve their data security to ensure they don't get caught out again.

I fully understand (and support) the reasoning behind GDPR; I just think that in this case there is a path which is easily open to abuse by attackers.

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by p0llard on Saturday June 13, 2020 @12:02PM (#23510364)
That's a pretty weak straw man; a data breach is entirely different to a store being robbed, as you well know.

One might as well ask

> Why does anyone stay in business in CA?

since (I believe) Californian state law has similar reporting requirements (and fines/civil liability) for breaches.

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by lopmotr on Saturday June 13, 2020 @03:57PM (#23512201)
Then you wouldn't accept credit cards in any country because merchants pay a fee for fraud on top of the lost revenue.

Nor the US where, for example, Target paid millions in a settlement for getting hacked.

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by pphysch on Saturday June 13, 2020 @01:29PM (#23511051)
Safety & security of customers and employees are largely the responsibility of the proprietor.

Would you make the same claim about e.g. OSHA violations?

Re:Universities Targeted by NetWalker Ransomware by Angostura on Saturday June 13, 2020 @12:07PM (#23510402)
I suspect, because it only happens in anti-GDPR fantasies. I watch GDPR enforcement pretty closely and haven’t seen this happen.