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Re:The antitrust case against Google by scarface74 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:13PM (#23494969)
So if you slice “the market” granularly enough and squint, then there is a monopoly.

If I had a general consumer business, I would much rather use FB advertising because they know more about their users than Google.

Re:The antitrust case against Google by lapnitnelav on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:53PM (#23495203)
1) Google, thanks to its acquisitions / strategies is actually all over the web, and has a hand in every single part of the ad tech stack (outside of walled gardens). It's problematic

2) As a consequence of #1 (all those Google Analytics install collecting data) and their properties (YT, Search, etc...) they have excellent data on pretty much every one.

As a matter of fact, someone in the industry made a test on Grindr to see what kind of audience quality each player had in the adtech world. Google was the best provider and by a large margin.

Re:The antitrust case against Google by pwdisswordfish2 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:21PM (#23495021)
That's only you, though. Plus you don't have a consumer business. Not very persuasive.

The "choice" described in the paper is not between Facebook and Google, it is between Google and nothing. According the the authors, Facebook does not particpate in the business of ads for the "open web".

Re:The antitrust case against Google by scarface74 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:24PM (#23495039)
Who cares if FB participates in the “open web” when the majority of adults in the US have a FB Account and probably spend more time on FB than anywhere else?
Re:The antitrust case against Google by pwdisswordfish2 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:08PM (#23495275)
Is this a rhetorical question or does it seek an answer?

Assuming the later, academics and people working on these investigations, if the "open web" is the market they are using for their antitrust analysis. If Facebook participated in this market then one could argue that there is some competition.

From a footnote in the PDF:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3391913

Re:The antitrust case against Google by nl on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:28PM (#23495741)
They are wrong if they think Google is a monopoly on "open web" advertising anyway.

Facebook's Audience Network allows you to buy ads on 3rd party (open) websites[1] as does VerizonMedia/Oath

[1] https://www.facebook.com/business/marketing/audience-network

Re:The antitrust case against Google by pwdisswordfish2 on Friday June 12, 2020 @12:06AM (#23495918)
What about AdGear, Adition, Polar and YoSpace?
Re:The antitrust case against Google by nl on Friday June 12, 2020 @12:35AM (#23496066)
Yes and many others. However the reach of the ones I listed is huge.
Re:The antitrust case against Google by pwdisswordfish2 on Friday June 12, 2020 @01:12AM (#23496248)
Why didn't Google mention the ones you cited and the "many others" in its response to the CMA report? Do none of them have customers in the UK?
Re:The antitrust case against Google by nl on Friday June 12, 2020 @01:33AM (#23496358)
That's a different report. I'm not particularly familiar with it, but I believe they were looking at Google dominance in search and search advertising, whereas this attempts to make an antitrust argument in "open web adverting".

The argument that Google is dominant in search is much stronger than the argument made here.

Re:The antitrust case against Google by pwdisswordfish2 on Friday June 12, 2020 @05:51AM (#23497630)
If you are not familiar with the CMA report then how do you know it does not address display ads on third party websites, i.e., "open web adverting"?

In the CMA report "open web advertising" is referred to as the "open display market".

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5dfa0580ed915...

"We have organised our work into three thigh-level themes:

Theme 1 considers to what extent Google and Facebook have market power in search and social media respectively and the sources of this market power;

Theme 2 assesses whether consumers have adequate control over the use of their data by online platforms, by exploring the choices they are given, how easy it is to exercise those choices and whether there is adequate protection for those who do not engage; and

Theme 3 focusses on the business to business digital advertising markets, exploring a range of concerns including a lack of transparency, conflicts of interest and the leveraging of market power to undermine competition."

Not disagreeing with your premise, however the Google response to the CMA report devotes a significant amount of verbiage to explaining and defending their position in the "open display market". On page 4 of the 25-page response to the CMA report you will find the heading "Competition in Digital Advertising". Under this you will see the subheadings "Search Advertising", "Display Advertising on Third Party Websites" and "Our Relationship with Publishers". The "Search Advertising" section is just over 3 pages. The "Display Advertising on Third Party Websites" is 4.5 pages. The "Our relationship with Publishers" section is just over 2 pages.

It is true the CMA did not make precisely the same arguments as the authors of the "roadmap" paper. They are two different jusrisdictions. However the CMA report forms the factual basis for all the arguments in the roadmap paper.

Re:The antitrust case against Google by nl on Friday June 12, 2020 @08:21AM (#23498480)
Why do you think Google didn't list these companies?

I found the Google response[1] and I'd note that they don't name any other companies at all (at least in a very quick glance through). I suspect this is a policy choice by Google - they don't want to be seen as pointing regulators at competitors.

I would also note that on page 23 footnote 69 they point references showing "the top 100 U.S. advertisers use an average 4 to 7 DSPs according to a 2016-2018 study" and "500 largest U.S. publishers use an average of 6 SSPs"

[1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d78ba3540f0b...

Re:The antitrust case against Google by pwdisswordfish2 on Friday June 12, 2020 @03:56PM (#23503143)
In parapgraph 29 of the response, with respect to "publisher ad serving", Google mentioned several competitors by name. In the roadmap paper the authors note the publisher ad server market is "particularly concentrated" with Google having a "90% or higher share".

Not sure I understand what you are thinking regarding the "policy choice" idea. Would need some more elaboration.

Re:The antitrust case against Google by nl on Friday June 12, 2020 @08:30PM (#23505451)
> In parapgraph 29 of the response

Could you refer to page number or something? I'm not going through counting paragraphs. I searched for "publisher ad serving" and didn't find it, and searched for "Facebook" and didn't find anything that seemed to sound like what you are talking about.

I don't understand the gist of your comments here either. You asked me why Google didn't refer to competitors in their response, but now you say that they do?

> Not sure I understand what you are thinking regarding the "policy choice" idea.

"they don't want to be seen as pointing regulators at competitors."

Re:The antitrust case against Google by pwdisswordfish2 on Saturday June 13, 2020 @05:07AM (#23508017)
The paragraphs are numbered for you. The legal field often prefers to reference numbered paragraphs instead of page numbers. It can be easier. Paragraph 29 is on page 8.

You claimed the authors of the roadmap paper are "wrong". You cited a couple of purported Google competitors, Facebook and Verizon. I noted that in their response to CMA report Google did not mention those two competitors. They mentioned several other ones, none of them as prominent as Facebook or Verizon. Then you said there are "many other" competitors, too, besides Facebook and Verizon. I am wondering why Google did mention any of these competitors you are referring to in their response to the CMA report. Seems like it would be relevant to mention them.

Re:The antitrust case against Google by nl on Sunday June 14, 2020 @12:49AM (#23515198)
Page 8 has footnote 29. Paragraphs aren't numbered. It doesn't name competitors there so I'm pretty confused.

However page 7 does say:

The Market Study will need to take account of the ways in which other players are entering, expanding, or consolidating in the supply of digital ads Examples include Amazon’s growing ads business, Verizon (which purchased AOL and Yahoo!), the integrated AT&T/Time Warner/AppNexus businesses, AdForm, and Alibaba – one of China’s largest digital ad providers that recently...

The reference in that quote include footnote 29. Perhaps you are confusing footnotes/references with the substantive response?

Re:The antitrust case against Google by scarface74 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:11PM (#23495288)
Again that goes back to slicing a market to fit a narrative and not reality.
Re:The antitrust case against Google by pwdisswordfish2 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:32PM (#23495405)
All antitrust lawsuits contain a narrative. There will be at least two narratives, one of which will be Google's.

As for "reality" you would need to be more specific what you mean.

What if someone said, "Who cares if they are slicing a market to fit a narrative?"

Are you saying the authors who are "slicing the market to fit a narrative" are not allowed to do that? Or are you just saying you do not like that they are doing that? Or both?

Re:The antitrust case against Google by perrylaj on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:20PM (#23495016)
If you had a general consumer business and used both, you'd probably drop Facebook after finding that they don't translate into revenue growth at nearly the same rate. If you didn't, you'd still likely find that your return on investment is far better with Google ad buys. At least, that was my experience with a lifestyle/hobby product. So many leads from Facebook were simply garbage, and the numbers seemed, well, let's just say questionable.

Again, your mileage may differ, but FB knowing more about people didn't seem to matter for me. When it came down to it, a dollar spent with Google was far better than a dollar spent with FB.

Re:The antitrust case against Google by 6AA4FD on Friday June 12, 2020 @02:00AM (#23496472)
Why are monopolies a problem? Because they stifle competition? Why is this? Because they control a market or ecosystem to the point where they can very very effectively prevent new players from entering it. If we have an ecosystem that a large number of our citizens are affected by and it is very hard for a new company to compete with a few established players, then there's a risk of many of those citizens getting "the short end" because the companies controlling the ecosystem have no incentive to competitively price anything. I think that's as good a reason as any to consider busting a monopoly.
Re:The antitrust case against Google by scarface74 on Friday June 12, 2020 @06:49AM (#23497942)
None of the big tech companies “control” an ecosystem. Users voluntarily choose that ecosystem because of network effects.

Every major tech company’s product has a viable alternative.