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Re:The social obligation to be bad at things by dorkwood on Thursday June 11, 2020 @12:55PM (#23490797)
Years ago I can remember seeing an artist on Twitter hitting back against some critics in the comments, saying something like "I didn't ask for your criticism".

At the time, I didn't understand why they were posting their work online if they didn't want to be criticized. I thought they needed to get a thicker skin.

Now that I've started sharing my own work with others, I completely see where they're coming from. Having someone who makes nothing and shares nothing log on to tell you how you should have done things differently is unwanted and not at all useful. Show me you know what you're talking about first, and I'll reconsider.

Re:The social obligation to be bad at things by marcus_holmes on Thursday June 11, 2020 @01:19PM (#23491055)
I love the "feedback bucket" method for dealing with this.

Feedback/criticism is basically shit. 99% of it is utterly worthless and useless. So I mentally put it into the "feedback bucket" together with all the other crap (my inner critic is a plentiful source of vicious, spiteful, targetted feedback).

Eventually, from the bucket, the Flowers of Insight will grow. My mind's background processing will distill all that crap into some genuinely useful insight that I can use to improve the thing.

So I listen to feedback, nod and smile, thank them for their contribution, and move on, waiting for the flowers to grow.

Re:The social obligation to be bad at things by Nohnce1 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @03:54PM (#23492717)
The visualization alone is helping with compartmentalizing negative feedback. That's a unique way to find insight by having sheer concentration of negative feedback.
Re:The social obligation to be bad at things by marcus_holmes on Friday June 12, 2020 @06:18AM (#23497767)
Remember though, that the positive feedback goes in the bucket too.

That also helps with the "shucks, thanks, but it's really not that good" reaction. If someone gushes praise over your work, then that goes in the bucket. Smile and nod, thank them for their contribution, move on.

Re:The social obligation to be bad at things by SuoDuanDao on Thursday June 11, 2020 @02:46PM (#23492037)
That is brilliant. As someone who can rely on only getting negative feedback from certain people in my life, I can definitely see myself benefiting from this approach.
Re:The social obligation to be bad at things by nullc on Thursday June 11, 2020 @04:27PM (#23492985)
> Having someone who makes nothing and shares nothing log on to tell you how you should have done things differently is unwanted and not at all useful.

What is especially frustrating is that inevitably 99% of such comments are also ideas that you had in your first seconds of thought on the subject, but discarded for good reason by the end of the first minute after thinking it through.

None of the people commenting gave it a minute of thought.

If the under-informed comments were at least kind that would be something else, but often they are not.

Sometimes a lovely conversation can arise from sharing your insight but you can't tell when instead of finding joy at a shared interest you'll find someone who just wants to debate and win at all cost, where their toy misunderstanding is the hill they want to die on. ... so you don't bother.

Re:The social obligation to be bad at things by thaumasiotes on Thursday June 11, 2020 @12:57PM (#23490826)
> Having someone who makes nothing and shares nothing log on to tell you how you should have done things differently is unwanted and not at all useful.

Until you're trying to sell your work instead of just exhibiting it.

Re:The social obligation to be bad at things by qznc on Thursday June 11, 2020 @01:44PM (#23491362)
Could you expand on "I completely see where they're coming from"?

I kind of learned this over time. So when someone shows off something lame, I just keep quiet. Sometimes I try to find something praiseworthy.

Personally, I do post stuff online to get feedback and I am willing to take vicious criticism. My stuff is not art. Well, maybe that small fanfic a while ago [0]. It is certainly lame compared to some but feedback is the only way I can improve. I don't think critics are obligated to phrase their criticism nicely.

[0] http://beza1e1.tuxen.de/sacrifice_of_scar.html

Re:The social obligation to be bad at things by dorkwood on Thursday June 11, 2020 @03:36PM (#23492567)
I think if you're posting your work with the goal of getting feedback, then that's totally fine. I'm not trying to say that all critique has to sound nice (I actually don't believe this at all). But if you are going to seek out critique online, I would like to offer some advice.

Something I see a lot of beginners doing after they post up a piece of work is say "if anyone has any critique or feedback, I would love to hear it!". I have a couple of problems with this approach:

1) You should be able to discern what's wrong with your own work. In order to improve, you need to complete the feedback loop of 'making an attempt, recognising where improvement is needed, studying how to improve that thing, and then making another attempt'. You need to learn to identify your own weaknesses, as well as your strengths, and not expect other people to do it for you.

2) It's not specific enough. If you're going to ask for feedback, mention a particular thing you've been working on that you're still struggling with. For an artist, it might be that the perspective feels off in their image, but they can't figure out why. For a writer, maybe they've been trying to work out an ending to their story, but they can't quite crack it. Asking for 'any suggestions for improvements' is well-meaning, and signals that you're interested in learning, but unfairly puts the burden on other people to decide what's wrong with your work (and often with beginners, the list is far too long to even know where to begin).

Re:The social obligation to be bad at things by thewebcount on Friday June 12, 2020 @11:47AM (#23500391)
> 1) You should be able to discern what's wrong with your own work. In order to improve, you need to complete the feedback loop of 'making an attempt, recognising where improvement is needed, studying how to improve that thing, and then making another attempt'. You need to learn to identify your own weaknesses, as well as your strengths, and not expect other people to do it for you.

That's a pretty insane thing to expect from someone trying to learn. It's something you eventually get to, but to get there, sometimes you need help finding the way. This is like saying, "I'm not going to teach you to read until you can read this sentence." Um... Thanks? You often don't know what you don't know.

> often with beginners, the list is far too long to even know where to begin

That's a pretty defeatist attitude. You don't have to tell them everything that's wrong with their work. You wouldn't tell a small child who drew you a picture that their light logic is wrong. You can pick a single thing that you think is the biggest problem and explain that.

Re:The social obligation to be bad at things by tayo42 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @05:02PM (#23493257)
> You should be able to discern what's wrong with your own work.

I think thats why people ask for critique or feedback, because they don't know yet. If you had a teacher they would be right there to help you lean the words and how to figure that out. Asking for feedback is really just trying to use the internet as a replacement for a teacher or mentor.

Re:The social obligation to be bad at things by dorkwood on Thursday June 11, 2020 @05:58PM (#23493717)
I understand what you're saying, that to beginners there are a lot of "unknown unknowns", but not everything should fall into that category. Even with a real-life teacher or mentor I'd give the same advice: go to them with a problem you're having or something you're trying to work on, rather than asking for general tips on how to get better.

We might have different fields of study in mind. In everything I've studied, even a beginner should be able to compare their work to the work of others and identify things that they need to work on. Do you have an example of a field of study where a beginner could look at their own work and not be able to identify anything that needs improving?

Re:The social obligation to be bad at things by tayo42 on Friday June 12, 2020 @11:01PM (#23506372)
I was thinking about my experiences drawing and painting. If you do something like impressionistic it can be hard to judge, did I do to much detail, not enough detail. With pen drawing it took me awhile to realize how much more depth i needed to add by using darker values. It did take me a while to have that click. I suspect it would have been obvious if I took a drawing I did and one I considered well done to compare and asked someone experienced to point out the differences.

But also personally when writing it helps to get feedback to a vague question like what do you think. The writing I've done is non fiction, technical blog like stuff. I think the vague question of "what do you think", "how can i make it better" works there because it stands alone. Even when presenting a picture I can almost kind of prime you're reaction with a blurb about it.

> go to them with a problem you're having or something you're trying to work on, rather than asking for general tips on how to get better.

I agree with that, you does help to have a goal when asking for help to make it effective

Re:The social obligation to be bad at things by magicalhippo on Friday June 12, 2020 @08:50AM (#23498677)
> Having someone who makes nothing and shares nothing log on to tell you how you should have done things differently is unwanted and not at all useful.

Just saying the work sucks is unproductive. When giving criticism I try my best to give productive feedback. For example if two colors clash in a way that doesn't work for me, I try to explain what it is about it that makes me feel that way, and maybe come up with some alternatives or variations to further explain what I'm trying to convey. Similar when reviewing text or code etc.

I also try to chose my words so that I don't sound demanding. I'm conveying my point of view, it is up to the receiver to decide what they want to do with it.

In any case I also always end with something positive. If I can't find _anything_ genuinely positive to say, I'll drop the whole thing and not say anything.

Of course in certain settings I have to be more authoritative. For example if I'm mentoring a new programmer on the team who just wrote some really bad code, that code needs to go and I can't skip talking about it. But I still try to follow the above as best as I can.