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Re:IBM no longer offers general purpose facial recognition o... by bilbo0s on Monday June 08, 2020 @10:55PM (#23463174)
I've had this issue with AI's in the medical industry.

At best, you have AI's that can easily recognize pathologies that an average rad could recognize, but are useless when it comes to trying to recognize a pathology that 99.999% of rads would miss. Why? Probably because the system is biased towards pathologies that rads recognize. Why? Probably because that's what's in the learning set. I understand all that, but that makes the AI almost useless in a production setting simply because of the way many healthcare delivery networks are structured with respect to radiology.

At worst, you have AI's that seem to recognize pathologies that an average rad could recognize, but then inexplicably have a horrible miss on an obvious study that any first year radiologist would have caught while half asleep. It's the sort of miss that makes the astute observer wonder if the other vendor's AI, the one that didn't have any misses on your test set, was simply not fed an example study that triggered its blindspot? You start to wonder where the blindspot on that one was? You start to wonder does it even have a blindspot? How can you work around blindspots like this in general? Etc.

But here's the thing, it's never good when you're thinking about mitigations while you're still testing the AI. My first RSNA was over 20 years ago. To this day, we're still hearing the same promises, and the production testing, (it never fails), is still uncovering the same issues.

Now I would have thought that recognizing a human would be easier than trying to ascertain, say, calcification in a DX, but apparently these same issues crop up in a number of different applications of ML based technologies.

I understand that a training set, by the very definition of the word "set", does not contain everything. Obviously, there will be bias towards whatever is in the training set. Essentially, most techniques today, simply train AI's to tell us whatever we tell the AI's to tell us. But for this reason it should be unsurprising that these sorts of AI's work best in settings with well defined domain spaces and are challenged when the domain space is less well defined. (And in either case, these AI's will have an inescapable bias towards whatever was in the training set.)

What does a tumor look like? Is probably too broad a question to give these AI's. What does a stop sign look like? Is probably a question that these AI's could answer relatively reliably. (I hope?) You would have thought that "what does a human look like?" would be closer to "what does a stop sign look like?" But I guess it's not surprising to hear that it seems to trend towards "what does a tumor look like?" in practice.

Re:IBM no longer offers general purpose facial recognition o... by skwb on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:22AM (#23463621)
I agree with you, but IMHO it's trying to solve the wrong problem. The real solution is identifying a major pain point (such as annotation, co-registration, etc) and solving a lot of the small annoying steps to make the radiologist better at his/her job.
Re:IBM no longer offers general purpose facial recognition o... by jogundas on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @03:54AM (#23464662)
Full disclosure: I am a cofounder at a startup automating chest X-ray reporting.

It is true that ML algorithms are almost always trained on radiologist labels on the same modality, and thus take in the reader biases. I also agree that some radiologists are better than others as you imply.

As a patient, one does not know who will read their film. IMHO we as an industry should aim not at beating 99.999% of radiologists. We should merely make products which consistently perform not worse than an average radiologist at a particular institution. It is always thrilling to outperform humans with your software, but at the end patient outcomes are what matters. Those are about consistent performance over a long period of time.

Demonstrating this consistent performance is the challenging part, but it is possible to prove it through sufficiently careful and lengthy prospective trials. That’s what we are focusing on, and I would love to see the other players in the industry do the same.

Re:IBM no longer offers general purpose facial recognition o... by zoomablemind on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @07:33AM (#23465647)
Is ML result considered as a first/second opinion, or as just 'a quick check' for reference only?

I believe that ML should not be taken in lieu of human opinion. The consensus, be it medical or legal, has to be explicitly human with all the responsibility attached.

Shifting the responsibility for the misses onto a faceless ML is only eroding trust in the professional opinions and cementing the biases.

Re:IBM no longer offers general purpose facial recognition o... by jogundas on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @03:20PM (#23480965)
I fully agree that treatment should be prescribed by a human doctor who can explain and answer questions. However, I would not agree that each of the data inputs to the treatment decision should be generated manually. That is already not the case.
Re:IBM no longer offers general purpose facial recognition o... by shermanmccoy on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @01:18AM (#23474204)
This is the same argument that is often put forward in relation to accident rates for self driving vehicles. ML only needs to outperform humans.

The problem with this argument is it glosses over that fact that in the tail, where the ML is making a wrong decision, sometimes a catastrophic one, the behaviour of the ML algorithm is not well understood. How can we deploy something in such safety critical applications that we do not fully understand?

Re:IBM no longer offers general purpose facial recognition o... by jogundas on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @03:16PM (#23480919)
Excellent point. That is what the lengthy prospective study phase as well as periodic auditing after deployment are for.

Please also note that there are several important differences as compared to the automotive industry. First, one could argue that the task at hand is trivial as compared to the self driving car. We are operating in a heavily constrained setting with much better understood data inputs and a hundred-year history of medical professionals trying to classify and systematize them. Moreover, our task is not time-critical. It sometimes takes more than a week for such an image to be reported on.