News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Most tech content is bullshit by bartread on Sunday June 07, 2020 @02:38PM (#23449520)
> I believe part of problem is Google SEO.

This and the fact that Google search is actually as dumb as a sackful of hammers.

Don't get me wrong, for the longest time Google's results were "good enough", but Google has no real concept of the quality of a result (they've tried and it worked for a while - e.g., PageRank). Still, fundamentally their algorithms aren't smart enough to figure out whether any given piece of content is intrinsically worthwhile.

That's really important in a world where most content is, regardless of Google's guidelines, primarily written for the benefit of GoogleBot, to harvest clicks or drive traffic.

Unfortunately Google has literally zero incentive to change this situation (because they're making an insane amount of money off the back of the status quo), so they won't[1].

Logically then, the time is ripe for a new search engine to disrupt but the problem - that of determining intrinsic worth - is really hard to solve, so as yet nobody has, and Google still reigns supreme as the most popular search engine.

[1] It is also possible that I'm being too harsh here: they might be trying to change it - perhaps because they're worried about eventually being disrupted - but, as noted in the following paragraph, the problem is REALLY hard.

Re:Most tech content is bullshit by jacobobryant on Sunday June 07, 2020 @03:05PM (#23449754)
> Logically then, the time is ripe for a new search engine to disrupt but the problem - that of determining intrinsic worth - is really hard to solve, so as yet nobody has

I'm sort-of trying to solve this with a recommender system approach.[1] Search isn't my primary objective; I'm mainly focusing on the case where you want to be made aware of relevant information on an ongoing basis but you aren't necessarily looking for something specific.

But that involves building up a ratings database of lots of different URLs. If it becomes really popular, I'd like to experiment with search. It could start with a "normal" search algorithm but then adjust the results based on rating data. E.g. "the top result for this query is X, but people with similar rating data to you always down vote that link, so we'll move that result down".

I've heard people complain about how Google gives you personalized search results sometimes, but I'm not sure if the approach is actually bad. Perhaps it could work if it was focused on from the start instead of bolted on.

[1] https://findka.com

Re:Most tech content is bullshit by bartread on Sunday June 07, 2020 @05:15PM (#23450888)
Interesting. I'd thought about some sort of meta-search service running over Google, Bing, etc., and aggregating results, that was tied in with some way of rating recommending URLs.

I've never got around to doing it and one of the reasons (excuses) is that I haven't yet figured out a way to stop bad actors exploiting it by, e.g., mass downvoting URLs of competitors. I did think about some sort of moving average, or bias toward more recent votes, which would at least somewhat mitigate against transient actions of this kind, but it's harder to deal with a sustained attack like this.

Re:Most tech content is bullshit by jacobobryant on Sunday June 07, 2020 @05:51PM (#23451196)
I've thought about that a fair amount also. I think the key is personalization. If bad actors downvoted a bunch of items, it would only affect people who already shared a lot of similar votes with those actors.

That is still exploitable: if I know you like A, B, and C, (perhaps those are popular items), I could also upvote those items and then downvote another item D. I have an idea for countering this: keep track of history. So instead of just measuring ratings overlap ("of items you've both rated, 75% of items were rated the same"), you keep track of the performance of recommendations made from that user ("of Alice's items that we recommended to Bob, Bob upvoted them 25% of the time").

I haven't thought about this super deeply yet, but I think to beat that, you'd have to actually provide valuable data to the system in the first place.

Re:Most tech content is bullshit by jacobobryant on Sunday June 07, 2020 @05:59PM (#23451251)
To generalize that a bit, I guess I'm talking about a reputation network. You could visualize it with a directed graph that has edges weighted from -1 to 1 (0 default). Recommendation + rating history is used in some way to assign those weights, and then future recommendations are taken primarily from other users who have high weights from your perspective.
Re:Most tech content is bullshit by polytely on Sunday June 07, 2020 @04:52PM (#23450699)
Quick question about findka, Is the idea to only upvote/downvote things you have actually experienced and liked or dislike, or do you also upvote/downvote things you don't know but like or dislike?

I would think the first case would result in way better data (which is why (I think) last.fm recommendation system is so good), but the latter case seems to be the natural thing to do, humans love to judge shit without actually engaging with stuff.

Re:Most tech content is bullshit by jacobobryant on Sunday June 07, 2020 @05:05PM (#23450819)
Mainly the former. Ideally you've experienced the things you've rated, but in many cases you can probably judge fairly accurately if you're interested in something based on a short description.

That brings up a key point which I'm not sure is clear to users or not: voting on items specifically means "this is/is not a good recommendation for me". It's not a judgment on the goodness of the item in general. So if findka showed me e.g. an article on pottery that looked high quality, I'd probably still downvote it since I'm not into pottery.

Re:Most tech content is bullshit by polytely on Sunday June 07, 2020 @05:18PM (#23450922)
I think that is not really communicated in the current design, reminds me of the ratings on Netflix where they are intended as "Our estimation of this contents rating for you based on your viewing history" while most people I talked about it just thought it was the rating of the thing in itself.
Re:Most tech content is bullshit by jacobobryant on Sunday June 07, 2020 @05:44PM (#23451141)
Good to know, any suggestions for making it clearer? Maybe thumbs up/down is the wrong labeling; perhaps something like "show me more like this" and "not interested"... though I have no idea what icons I would use for that.
Re:Most tech content is bullshit by polytely on Monday June 08, 2020 @05:23AM (#23454998)
Might even be a good idea to just have text labels, I think just icons are way overrated in design.

[I hated this] [I'm interested in this] [I liked this]

Re:Most tech content is bullshit by tomxor on Sunday June 07, 2020 @02:53PM (#23449627)
What I don't get is how SEO isn't countered by unvisiting... By which I mean navigating back to the google search, I always assumed that would be a clear indicator to google that it's not what the user was looking for.

Maybe this does happen but it not weighted highly enough against SEO.

Re:Most tech content is bullshit by CM30 on Monday June 08, 2020 @04:47AM (#23454815)
Probably because both 'what the user was looking for' and 'why they left the page quickly' are complex issues.

For instance, quite a few times I'll open a page in Google's results, scan the content and go back to compare it to another result. That doesn't necessarily mean I hate the first page or think it's terrible, just that I wanted to see what it had to offer.

It can also mean I did find the answer there, and am returning to Google to search for something else instead.

It's tough to distinguish cases like those from 'the content was bad' and 'the content was not what I was looking for'.

There's also the worry that it might end up hurting user incentives too, or alter the way in which users browse the internet as a whole.

After all, since finding out that YouTube rewards/punishes creators based on watch time/how much of the video someone watches, I'm now hesitant to even watch many videos at all, since I know some guy's career might potentially be put on the line.

Perhaps Google worries other people will be the same, and stop clicking as many results knowing that Google might punish the affected websites for not staying long enough.

Re:Most tech content is bullshit by jason0597 on Sunday June 07, 2020 @04:45PM (#23450648)
A lot of times I middle click any interesting links I find on Google, in which case it becomes hard for Google to know if I unvisited a site. It's not like they can track me clicking the Back button on my browser and arriving back to the search results
Re:Most tech content is bullshit by bartread on Sunday June 07, 2020 @05:34PM (#23451057)
I've no idea whether they do this or not but it's easy enough to know when a tab or window is focussed or not. I have a games site and use this to pause/unpause games, music, etc.

They could hook this into Google Analytics and subtract the time you spent with that tab/window not focussed from your session duration.

I do fundamentally agree that session duration may not be the worst proxy for worthwhile content or, at least, engaging content, snd I think Google may use it as such.