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Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by monadic2 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @12:51PM (#23405581)
Makes me wonder if you could slingshot around the sun towards relativistic speeds with thermal power. At the very least it could save fuel on the egress, if not the second half.

Can you aerobrake around a star?

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by perihelions on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:05PM (#23411142)
"if you could slingshot around the sun towards relativistic speeds with thermal power"

Unfortunately, no. The boost you can steal from a powered flyby is only of the same order as the escape velocity of the massive object. For the sun, this is 617 km/s at its surface, or 0.002 c. The term you're interested in is "Oberth effect".

To get relativistic speeds on the table, you'd need exotic, compact objects whose escape velocities are relativistic. I.e. white dwarfs, neutron stars & black holes.

No one asked, but: Freeman Dyson pointed out [0] some astounding properties of a short-period white dwarf binary. (Particularly: there are two stars; both are extremely dense; and they are orbiting around each other at an extremely high relative velocity). If you could perform a close slingshot maneuver around one of these stars, you would be accelerated to relativistic speeds in mere seconds. What's more, this would be an entirely unpowered, propellantless manuevuer (stealing orbital momentum from the binary system). And finally, as an incredible example of the equivalence principle, human passengers wouldn't even notice the insane ~10^4 g's of acceleration: it's equivalent to free-fall.

[0] This is a PDF https://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~barnes/ast242_s14/Dyson_Machines... (1963)

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by sq_ on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:05PM (#23405780)
> Can you aerobrake around a star?

Not a physicist, but it seems like you should be able to do something similar to aerobraking (not one-to-one since the Sun's "atmosphere" is different from a planet's). Maybe using a solar sail of some sort directed at the right angle?

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by idreyn on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:10PM (#23405848)
I went on a wiki-binge on this topic a few days ago and so I recognize this as a magsail[0]. It would be an attractive addition to an interstellar craft since it obviates the need to carry propellant for deceleration.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_sail

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by tectonic on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @03:08PM (#23407381)
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by sq_ on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:16PM (#23405914)
That's really cool. Definitely helpful in order to drop deceleration fuel requirements if we ever manage to put together a relativistic interstellar spacecraft.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by phkahler on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:44PM (#23406303)
In a bit over 1M years another star is expected to pass around 1000 AU from the sun. Chemical rockets should be able to get there in a decade or two. It's a huge stretch, but we have a million years to prepare.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by sq_ on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:49PM (#23406378)
Oh wow. Had never heard about that. Wouldn't that pass within the range of the Oort Cloud? Seems like we might have some issues from the gravitational effects if so (although that's assuming humans manage to keep ourselves going for another million years).
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by Koshkin on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:11PM (#23410738)
Something makes me doubt that humans will still be around at that time.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by sq_ on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:17PM (#23410792)
With the way we’re going, maybe not. But maybe we’ll shape up and some version of humanity will make it.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by theandrewbailey on Thursday June 04, 2020 @12:36PM (#23418760)
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by mhh__ on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @04:01PM (#23407954)
Can't do the maths at the moment but you'd probably need a lead spacecraft to get close enough. Getting close to the sun also means you'll be going ridiculously fast e.g. Parker Solar Probe will hit something like 200km/s and it's still millions of kilometres from the sun
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by ddxxdd on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @05:58PM (#23409346)
Thermal power requires a reservoir of cold temperature; your car's engine would do nothing if the incoming air was just as hot as the post-ignited air.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by dmurray on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:22PM (#23410845)
I'm sure this is true in practice, but I can't wrap my head round why it's correct in theory. Let's say I hook up my exhaust to my intake, I can still squirt some gasoline into the engine, make it explode and expand and thereby drive a piston, at the cost of having even hotter air the next time round.

If I repeat this long enough, my engine will melt, but that's a minor matter of materials science. Maybe I can win my drag race before it melts. Is that the limiting factor or is there some other reason I'm missing that we need a heat gradient?

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by marcosdumay on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:05PM (#23411526)
If you heat it more each time, yeah, the old air can act as a cold reservoir and make things run.

If you do draw it with enough detail, you'll notice that if you do not heat it more at each turn, you won't be able to get any pressure difference at your "explosion".

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by monadic2 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:25PM (#23411646)
Yes, I was envisioning solid hydrogen fuel powering by outgassing as envisioned in the article.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by TeMPOraL on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @06:16PM (#23409530)
> Can you aerobrake around a star?

If you can keep your cool, why not? Matter is matter.

What's better, you could technically radiation-brake around a star. I don't know how big of a solar sail you'd have to present to get a meaningful force from it.

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by DarmokJalad1701 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @07:05PM (#23410069)
> slingshot around the sun

You can only slingshot around the sun if you were already in a hyperbolic orbit w.r.t the sun. An object in a closed helio centric orbit cannot gain any momentum by "slingshotting" around the sun.

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by monadic2 on Thursday June 04, 2020 @03:31AM (#23413708)
It can if it loses mass, correct? Energy conservation would result in increased momentum.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by fennecfoxen on Thursday June 04, 2020 @08:29AM (#23415703)
Yes. Your mass in low Sol orbit has a much higher specific orbital energy, so thrusting a rocket or ejecting mass while at or near perihelion makes more of a difference than doing so in deep space.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by troymc on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:56PM (#23406464)
Brown dwarf stars can be relatively cool and can have atmospheres, so you could aerobrake around those.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by isoprophlex on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:50PM (#23407181)
Magneto-braking maybe?