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Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by fabian2k on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:28AM (#23404441)
Hydroxychloroquine is a really frustrating topic as there's so much bad science involved. The early studies were terrible and didn't give any useful information. And now we have more studies in prestigious journals that appear to be at least problematic, if not based on outright faked data. And on top of that are the politics, endorsing and promoting it before any substantial data could be collected.

We still have no idea whether hydroxychloroquine works or not for COVID19. And the hype is rather harmful and misleading as even if it did work, it is exceedingly unlikely to be a game changer but a small incremental improvement.

This is also certainly a failure of peer review. Though that has always been rather weak for cases of outright fraud and scientific misconduct, it still relies on the researchers to be honest about the data they represent.

Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by PiggySpeed on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:40AM (#23404618)
People are losing their heads out there because they don't understand how to interpret studies.

The most infuriating offenders are the media, who have been irresponsible with the presentation of clinical study results. They'll take the results of an observational study and herald it as some revolutionary insight, when in reality the doctors, nurses, and pharmacists interpreting these results are saying "hmm okay, well let's be cautious in our approach and wait for other studies to be done".

Clinical practice should never change, and has never changed (to my knowledge) from the whims of a single OBSERVATIONAL study. But outside medical circles, people will see the results they want to see, and never look past the first 10 words of a headline.

Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by userbinator on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @07:39PM (#23410440)
They'll take the results of an observational study and herald it as some revolutionary insight

That's been going on for a while, it reminds me of this: https://kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/

Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by thu2111 on Thursday June 04, 2020 @07:19AM (#23415137)
A problem is that different fields that sound similar have very different standards.

Epidemiologists appear to frequently take un-reviewed, un-published papers straight to the press and politicians specifically to change government policy.

Actual doctors, not so much.

What's the difference between an expert in infectious diseases and an expert in treatment of infectious diseases, to the layman? Hardly any.

The media plays a part. Journalists routinely conflate doctors, academics and political activists under the rubric of "experts". Sometimes this is deliberate and overt. Guido Fawkes has had a long running campaign where they expose TV news presenting left-wing activists as neutral experts, without telling anyone about the interviewees backgrounds. As can be seen in this particular incident, that campaign has started to have a small effect, but some journalists don't like being exposed that way!

https://order-order.com/2020/05/22/sky-news-gets-there-event...

For people to get better at interpreting studies the first step must be to de-conflate different kinds of "expert". In particular academics need to be referred to as such and separated from the type of practical expert who practices their craft in the real world every day.

Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by dboreham on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @03:59PM (#23407941)
>We still have no idea whether hydroxychloroquine works or not for COVID19

Don't we know to a first approximation that it doesn't work? This because it has been widely tried and there wasn't an "Awakenings" experience where the patients obviously got better. So if it works at all, it only does so at the margin. So hard to tell that it's necessary to gather a large statistical sample to know one way or the other.

Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by fabian2k on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @04:06PM (#23408018)
I personally think it is unlikely to work, and at best might have a marginal effect. That is mostly because most of these early results don't pan out, so that is a reasonably safe bet in any case. And as you said, a very strong effect would likely have been shown by now, with all the attention and the large number of people getting the drug.

I was trying to keep objective when writing that, there simply wasn't any really well-designed trial yet. Though from what I read just an hour ago or so there is a new trial that is said to be randomized and well-designed that hasn't found an effect, but I haven't looked beyond the headlines there yet.

Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by SomeoneFromCA on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @06:07PM (#23409437)
One of the potential reasons that ex-USSR has quite low death rate (even if we consider that numbers are forged, and actualy 5x (!) bigger than in reality is that all of these countries actively use antimalarial drugs.
Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by zoomablemind on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:07PM (#23410702)
Where does this claim come from? Ex-USSR sounds too broad. Any sources on the 'active use'?
Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by SomeoneFromCA on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:34PM (#23410919)
Russia does according to various circumstantial pieces of evidence - keep in mind, being Russia, lot of this info is not public. All of ex-USSR shared similar medical system previously, and many (except for Baltic countries probably) tend to follow the advice of Russian doctors. I cannot give you some "hard evidence", only probably for Russia, yet the death rate and speed of infection spread is clearly lower in these countries.
Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by zoomablemind on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:59PM (#23411091)
Russia is currently third in the world with the highest number of confirmed cases (over 400k), after USA and Brazil. Deaths data reported from Russia are even more questionable, given their disposition, early in epidemic, to fudge it on comorbidities.

As for the malaria drugs, these were not in routine use, at least not prior to the current epidemic. Moreover, recently Russia seems to place its bets on a Japanese broad-spectrum antiviral drug Favipiravir [1].

[1]: https://www.trialsitenews.com/russia-ministry-of-health-appr...

Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by SomeoneFromCA on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:33PM (#23411343)
1. They have lots of cases, because they do lots of testing. Even then it is on 33rd place on the cases per capita scale. 2. As I said, even if the actual death rate is more than 500% (unrealistic number) of claimed the number is still low, much lower than of the most of Europe. 3. Of course they did not use malaria drugs prior to epidemic - why would they? They used quinine derivative long before May, cannot find a link right now, but here is a link for Uzbekistan (https://podrobno.uz/cat/obchestvo/stalo-izvestno-chem-lechat...) which uses chloroquine. The death rate is abysmal in Uzbekistan, and everywhere else in Central Asia, the other countries use similar methods. You may argue that Uzbekistan is not a reliable source of information, but there is clearly no outbreaks in that particular country.
Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by ImaCake on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @06:10PM (#23409468)
If the measure of effect is small, we probably won't know if it works until someone puts together a meta-analysis of all the randomised controlled trials. That could take months. And it seems like some of those trials have been paused because of the well known problems chloroquine has.
Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by garmaine on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @05:34PM (#23409076)
That’s a straw man because it is not at all how it is theorized to work. HCQ + loads of zinc should cause the virus to replicate more slowly. It does nothing to the virus itself, so your body has to fight it just the same. However it should reduce the incidence of the most severe cases, by reducing viral load in patients. So the outcome would be fewer deaths (or alternatively, intubations), but not a magical cure.
Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by dariusj18 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @03:08PM (#23407392)
This is one of the reasons politicians shouldn't wade into these decisions. They raise the stakes and create opposing incentives.
Re:A mysterious company’s Covid-19 papers in top medical jou... by retox on Friday June 05, 2020 @05:59AM (#23426773)
Some people hate the US president so much they don't care if people die because of their reporting.