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Re:Dust in the Light by dmode on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @02:27PM (#23394289)
I love Ben Thompson's writing and I like how he accurately connects the history of institutional racism to the events of today. I have seen a few articles of this kind, and it seems like in today's America vast majority of people (except a few Trump holdouts) have acknowledged that the historical arc of slavery to segregation to white flight to real estate discrimination has led to where we are.

However, what I don't hear is radical solution to this problem. Even in Obama's medium essay, the solution is deep police and criminal justice reform. Which, while important, is incremental. What we need here is a step change to course correct 400 years of history. And incremental changes do not cut it. Here are some step change suggestions

1)Trillions of dollars of reparations 2) A generous UBI 3) Free healthcare 4) Trillions of investment in schools in poorer neighborhoods 5) A dramatic rise in minimum wage

In pre-COVID world, I would accept a reasonable pushback against this suggestion was "deficit" "debt" etc. But COVID has exposed these pushbacks was hypocritical (puts a stark spotlight on the hypocritical Tea Party movement). We printed trillions of dollars overnight to save small and big businesses, and employees. Why can't we move at that scale ? If we can suddenly print that much money, what is stopping us from massive investments in our most disadvantaged communities to undo 400 years of history ?

Re:Dust in the Light by twunde on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @08:20PM (#23398189)
Tangent: For anyone who wants to learn more about the history of instutional racism in the US, in particular the Home Owners’ Loan Corporation, The Color of Law (https://www.amazon.com/Color-Law-Forgotten-Government-Segreg...) goes into detail about the history of red lining and how it was GOVERNMENT-supported. For those bothered by the curfews imposed across the US, I'd also recommend Sundown Towns (https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-Americ...), which discusses how many metropolitan areas had unofficial but very much enforced curfews for minorities.
Re:Dust in the Light by disease on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @03:43PM (#23395417)
Economic parity would go a long way towards solving these problems, I don't think they can happen before white racial resentment is solved. It's interesting that so many working class whites are so willing to vote against their own economic self interest - particular where the possibility of raising the levels of working class blacks is concerned. Last Place Aversion is a very real thing it seems.
Re:Dust in the Light by scarface74 on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @06:34PM (#23397258)
Economic Parity doesn’t have anything to do with police mistreatment and racial profiling. My family lives in the most affluent part of our metro area, my son grew up in the burbs all of his life, as an experienced software engineer by definition we have higher than the median income for our area, and people still thought we were up to something when we walked through our house as it was being built while other couples freely walked in and out of unsold homes.

Last year, I was outside talking to our (White) yard guy. His truck with the name of his lawn service was parked out front. He was dressed in beat up jeans, dusty, and holding the lawn mower while I had just come from work - in slacks and button down shirt. A neighbor walked over to us and asked him how long has he been living here while completely ignoring me. He looked like he was going to say something and I quietly nudged for him not to. I politely said I would see them later and walked into the house.

She was embarrassed - point made. When she left, I walked back outside with a bottle of water for him and we started back talking. I told him I just walked into the house to make a point and we both laughed.

Re:Dust in the Light by jtr1 on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @05:33PM (#23396589)
I agree that this has to be part of the solution. There are some activists who have called for the US to go through a national truth and reconciliation proceedings to establish a common narrative.
Re:Dust in the Light by free_rms on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @04:28PM (#23395931)
Do you think any of those people actually think to themselves "I'm going to vote against my economic self-interest because of Last Place Aversion"?
Re:Dust in the Light by scarface74 on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @06:49PM (#23397426)
Maybe they don’t say that but how many farmers who voted for Trump because of his platform about deporting “illegals” are now complaining that they can’t find anyone to work their farms because Americans won’t work the fields at any price?

And they are going to vote for him again?

How many “good Christians” support him even after the recording came out about him “grabbing a woman by the p%%%%”?

Re:Dust in the Light by free_rms on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @07:08PM (#23397605)
Farmers are rich, though, and they're doing fine for labor. The trade war hit them worse by tanking pork prices.

For working class people, neoliberal economics have done nothing for them. Plants in town have closed and they don't see any investment in their community from their tax dollars.

If neither party is going to look out for you, it's perfectly rational to sigh and pick the one that at least doesn't villainize you as some sort of oppressor.

If the democrats want to win back the white union vote, they need to actually offer something besides "vote for us or you're racist". I guess there's always 2024.

Re:Dust in the Light by dmode on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @04:03PM (#23395695)
Can you expand a little bit on the white racial resentment and what you mean by it ?
Re:Dust in the Light by pcbro141 on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @06:58PM (#23397522)
A non-trivial percentage of White Americans feel like African-Americans have already been made whole for the hundreds of years of wrongdoing done to them, and some even feel like Black people actually have more privilege/opportunity than White people in America and that America is now "reverse racist". Anecdotally, they tend to be poorer Whites who feel aggrieved that they haven't gotten the wealth they feel they deserve, but not always.

Basically the type of people who think saying "Black Lives Matter" means you hate White people.

Re:Dust in the Light by ratww on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @05:13PM (#23396385)
The term was coined by Publius [1] in his blog. It's resentment towards black people due a belief of having *"been significantly deprived of various things because of minorities".

Also, WaPo recently used one question from historical surveys by the ANES (American National Election Studies) to measure what they consider "white resentment", and there seems to be a large correlation between that and other political positions. [2]

(Skip to the "Here’s how we did our research" part and the graph if you're not a fan of WaPo)

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[1] https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/08/my-on...

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/01/1...

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Re:Dust in the Light by free_rms on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @05:43PM (#23396698)
Maybe they just vote for the party that doesn't call them white trash?
Re:Dust in the Light by __s on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @06:24PM (#23397153)
This might surprise you but I don't vote democrat
Re:Dust in the Light by scarface74 on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @06:37PM (#23397292)
I am definitely not White - but when Democrats say that the “white trash” only care about guns and the Bible, why wouldn’t they vote for Trump? You never win votes by insulting the people that you want to vote for you.
Re:Dust in the Light by metalliqaz on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @07:03PM (#23397569)
Democrats don't say that.

Unless you grant that Republicans say that "blacks are lazy and violent" because right-leaning Internet randos say it online.

The presumptive Democrat candidate put out words of unity, compared to Trump's verbal shit splatter.

Re:Dust in the Light by scarface74 on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @07:12PM (#23397647)
Do you consider Obama an "internet Rando?"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/14/barackobama.us...

Obama was caught in an uncharacteristic moment of loose language. Referring to working-class voters in old industrial towns decimated by job losses, the presidential hopeful said: "They get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Re:Dust in the Light by dmode on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @07:53PM (#23397955)
Can you point to the phrase "white trash" in the statement above ? Trump, the defacto leader of Republican party, has said things that are 1000x worse
Re:Dust in the Light by free_rms on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @09:06PM (#23398546)
This entire subthread is based around the premise of "they're too stupid/racist to know what's good for them".

Whether or not the specific phrase 'white trash' is said or not said doesn't matter. It could be 'clinging to guns and religion', could be 'deplorables', etc.

Racism totally does exist among the demographic we're talking about but it's not the only motivator anyone ever has.

Re:Dust in the Light by scarface74 on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @08:00PM (#23398002)
I said nothing about him calling them “white trash”. I was quoting the parent. I said that Democrats claimed that rural America only cares about “guns and the Bible”. A slight misquote from memory. But it wasn’t an “internet Rando” that expressed that sentiment like you claimed.

Trump can afford to say “much worse” just like republicans in the past could afford to use the “Southern Strategy” and dog whistle to their constituents.

Re:Dust in the Light by Fartag on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @05:38PM (#23396632)
news.ycombinator.com is another amazing echo chamber. Racism going one way, one-sided political views, forum sliding, dissenting posts flagged, down moderated, censored from view. One more Leftwing echo chamber to radicalize, brainwash and mislead. Training techno Marxists to destroy their own critical thinking, side always politically left, ridicule and embrace censorship of their enemies, and to bury awareness that their hungry, deathful ideology has historically killed 100 ~ 200+ million of their own people.
Re:Dust in the Light by sunshinerag on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:34AM (#23400564)
Where do the trillions come from?
Re:Dust in the Light by kennxfl on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @02:57PM (#23394758)
Covid had definitely exposed flaws in pure free market capitalism. We are modern human beings who can control Darwinism for the sake of greater good if need be.
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Re:Dust in the Light by huac on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @04:11PM (#23395775)
> Also all the government spending for COVID was also misguided. Not the federal government's role and our debt is at dangerous levels.

What is the role of the federal government, if not "to provide basic services to its citizens in times of extraordinary need"? In the face of a generational pandemic, from which nobody is unaffected, why should the government throw up its hands and not spend?

I recognize that that is something of an ideological statement, and we're not going to get anywhere with non-falsifiable statements. So let's think of it a different way: you say that "debt is at dangerous levels" - how would you quantify danger? US Treasury yields, how we "finance" debt, are at all-time lows - which means that private buyers are willing to pay higher prices than ever for the safety of Treasury bonds. There is absolutely no quantitative evidence that more US government debt is dangerous; in fact, the evidence points squarely towards investors demanding more debt issuance, and thus government spending, given the extremely low rates.

Re:Dust in the Light by zchrykng on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @05:04PM (#23396303)
Federal government's purpose is international relations, trade, and defense. Everything should be handled by the states, counties, and towns.

Part of what makes federal debt dangerous is the fact that we can't possibly run the country without issuing large amounts of debt at this point. If debt continues to grow at the rates that is has been, eventually tax revenue won't even cover the interest on said debt. At some point the US will have to be issuing debt to pay off interest on other debt, assuming we aren't there now - haven't checked in a while. Even assuming that investors never realize how much of a house of cards this is, this continual increase in the money supply will eventually lead to a large amount of inflation, which will devalue the currency, increasing debt required, which feeds back into the loop.

Currently, we don't have a major problem manifesting, but judging from pretty much every other country that has run massive debt for an extended period, it is just a matter of time.

Re:Dust in the Light by yowlingcat on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @06:03PM (#23396913)
> Federal government's purpose is international relations, trade, and defense.

Ahh but the idea of defense runs straight into the chicken and the egg of public health. Correct me if you disagree with me, but if anything, the ability of COVID to have completely overwhelmed our medical infrastructure and overrun our country and really the world has made me deeply question whether we as a country have adequate defenses to any possible bioweapon attack. If we can't muster a good response to this, what happens if a modern version of smallpox or Spanish Flu hits? I mean, Congo has just been hit by a second Ebola outbreak.

Re:Dust in the Light by satyrnein on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @05:29PM (#23396522)
> my money taken away

This assumes that the money has been earned completely fairly. Every law or norm restricting black people (redlining, restrictive covenants, discriminatory hiring practices, etc) is effectively a subsidy to white people. Therefore, some of the dollars in their pockets are stolen, in a moral sense. Restoring some of those dollars is only fair.

Mind you, I'm not sure if it's practical, but that's the logic.

Re:Dust in the Light by jtr1 on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @05:34PM (#23396593)
Also assumes that taxation is the only source of funding.
Re:Dust in the Light by bryanlarsen on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @05:16PM (#23396412)
Because without a functioning society you'd probably be a subsistence farmer or have been killed by a roving pack of bandits.
Re:Dust in the Light by dmode on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @04:55PM (#23396201)
You end up paying one way or the other. You either pay it upfront, or you pay it through social unrest, heavy militarization, boarded ups stores, 100K dead in 2 months, and society on the brink
Re:Dust in the Light by brokencode on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @06:29PM (#23397206)
Because you are the beneficiary of hundreds of years of policies and systemic racism that has benefited you at the cost of your fellow man.

Imagine your parents stole a fortune from your neighbor and passed it on to you when they died. Does that money belong to you, or your neighbor/their children? I think the answer is common sense. The fact that you weren’t the one who originally stole the money is irrelevant.

Re:Dust in the Light by fossuser on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @07:03PM (#23397570)
What about if you go back three or four generations? five or six?

I'm conflicted on this issue, I really understand the need and can persuade myself either way but it's not obvious.

Being black in America may be a special case that's worth trying to correct directly with something like reparations, but I'm not convinced you can right all historical wrongs by this logic generally. A lot of groups have faced terrible persecution throughout history.

American Indians, Jews, etc.

Re:Dust in the Light by dmode on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @07:57PM (#23397977)
UBI and free healthcare are universal solutions
Re:Dust in the Light by alexashka on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @04:42PM (#23396053)
Why should anything, anywhere at any point in time?

I personally don't find this line of questioning fruitful. The trouble is that word 'should'.

Philosophers call it an is-ought problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

Re:Dust in the Light by jjtheblunt on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @07:24PM (#23397749)
Would that imply taxation (to fund such) on recent immigrants from Asia and Europe and Africa, whose ancestors were not involved in the horrors of slavery?
Re:Dust in the Light by sharkjacobs on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @07:37PM (#23397832)
It's not about personal responsibility, or ancestral responsibility. Immigrants in the United States chose to become part of that country, with all the benefits, privileges, and responsibilities that entails.

edit: To make an analogy, if you move into a condo, and its roof needs to be replaced the next year, it's not your fault that the building's reserve fund can't cover the cost, but that doesn't exempt you from paying the special levy.

Re:Dust in the Light by jimmydddd on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @10:09PM (#23398943)
Agreed. But if I just moved in yesterday, I wouldn't be happy if other tenants cursed me out and blamed me personally for the fact that the reserve fund hadn't been funded for the last twenty years.
Re:Dust in the Light by dmode on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @07:52PM (#23397947)
I don't see why not ? I also don't think we may not need Nordic country level taxation. Since the US treasury can print unlimited money and still see extremely low yields, why even raise taxes ?