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Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by StavrosK on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @12:00PM (#23392485)
Absolutely agree. But also, I think that IA was entirely morally right to do this. The publishers seized the opportunity to do something they've wanted to do for a while, and in my opinion, it's despicable.
Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @12:02PM (#23392515)
> IA was entirely morally right to do this

That's fair. But the consequences should have been obvious. Part of launching a test case is segregating the liability.

If IA wanted to launch a legal challenge, they should have segregated the risk from the main organization. Setting precedent with out-of-copyright and licensed works would have been one way. Allowing a third party to run the National Emergency Library would have been another.

Instead, it seems they thought of an idea and ran with it. For an organization aiming for longevity, that's poor process.

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by kick on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @12:49PM (#23393092)
Setting precedent with out-of-copyright and

They already did allow out-of-copyright works to be downloaded as many times as anyone wants, without DRM. They're out of copyright. That's unambiguously legal and always has been. There, they've done what you wanted them to, they "segregated the risk from the main organization" (you'd have to have a pretty warped worldview to imagine it makes a difference, but nothing in your comment would have actually done that).

Allowing a third party to run the National Emergency Library would have been another.

I've read this line over and over again. Is this what you meant by it? "The organization that has all of the books and is registered as a library shouldn't have run the library that's legally grounded in them being legally-recognized as a library and having all of the books that they have."

If so, I completely disagree with you.

This makes way more sense than you're giving credit for. IA isn't run by a five year old.

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by wtracy on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @01:04PM (#23393286)
The assertion is that a new organization should have been formed that owns the books and performs the lending, but has no access to the rest of the IA's assets. Then, in the event of a lawsuit, the only thing the publishers could seize would be the actual books.

As it is, the entire IA infrastructure could be torn apart overnight.

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by kick on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @01:16PM (#23393451)
The assertion is that a new organization should have been formed that owns the books and performs the lending

Wouldn't be legally recognized as a library, which was something the IA spent years clawing to be recognized as.

but has no access to the rest of the IA's assets

This would be incredibly stupid and would require a complete restructuring of how the IA works (despite the belief of seemingly many people in this thread, the IA is significantly more than the Wayback Machine).

Then, in the event of a lawsuit, the only thing the publishers could seize would be the actual books.

Which would still be bad and morally wrong, and is more likely to happen when it's its own, non-library entity.

As it is, the entire IA infrastructure could be torn apart overnight.

No, it couldn't. Not a bit more than it could be five months ago.

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by wtracy on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @01:25PM (#23393560)
> Wouldn't be legally recognized as a library, which was something the IA spent years clawing to be recognized as.

That's an important nuance that I and others missed.

> No, it couldn't.

Why not? The publishers win a judgement for a value that exceeds that of the IA's total assets, and all of the IA's infrastructure gets seized and auctioned off in the bankruptcy proceedings.

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by kick on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @01:38PM (#23393707)
Why not? The publishers win a judgement for a value that exceeds that of the IA's total assets, and all of the IA's infrastructure gets seized and auctioned off in the bankruptcy proceedings.

The data is backed up in many ways (including to some extent in a fully-distributed fashion, though I'm not in the know enough to give you an idea of how vast it is: https://dweb.archive.org/ ), and a non-profit can't be forced into bankruptcy in the way you're implying (which is another reason it's so important the IA is non-profit), so the physical assets are safe:

https://www.abi.org/member-resources/blog/a-non-profit-entit...

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by tripletao on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @03:32PM (#23395264)
I'm confused. Are you saying that the IA should run the Wayback Machine and library under one entity, or two different entities? In your reply to JumpCrisscross, you seem to argue for one, and that two would have no benefit; but your link contradicts that.

Your link is about substantive consolidation, a process where the bankruptcy court combines multiple related legal entities into one. This can benefit the creditors of Entity A, since it may frustrate the debtor's attempt to shield assets by placing them in a related Entity B. Your link correctly notes that a nonprofit can't be forced into bankruptcy, and thus can't be forced into substantive consolidation. So if the IA used the two-entity strategy, then your link implies it would be quite effective--worst case, the publishers take all the assets of the library entity, and they have no way to touch the Wayback entity.

If both the Wayback Machine and the library are under the same entity, then that single entity still can't be forced into bankruptcy, because it's a nonprofit. But the creditor (i.e., the publishers with their hypothetical judgment) can still just collect against the single nonprofit entity, bankruptcy or no bankruptcy. If the judgment is for more than the entity's assets then the creditor gets everything.

The point of bankruptcy is to consolidate multiple creditors' claims into a single case, to be resolved more fairly, while destroying less value, etc. It seems like you might be thinking that no bankruptcy means no ability for the creditors to collect? But that's exactly backwards--bankruptcy is primarily a set of protections for the debtor (like the "automatic stay", which stops creditors from trying to collect outside the bankruptcy), with a few smaller benefits for the creditor (like that substantive consolidation) thrown in.

ETA: And I see that the IA describes itself as "recognized as a library by the government", but I'm not aware of any specific legal benefit from that. Regardless, if that's somehow important then they could leave the books in the library entity and split out the Wayback, instead of splitting out the library.

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by mcguire on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @02:55PM (#23394733)
Wouldn't that be treated by the courts as an attempt to shield IA's assets?
Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by StavrosK on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @12:05PM (#23392559)
Sure, I don't disagree.
Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by arkades on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @12:32PM (#23392917)
The publishers waited until someone made a massive over-reach beyond any plausible deniability or defense, and that makes them despicable?

I mean... a little blame goes to the folks that made the massive over-reach beyond any plausible deniability or defense, right? Maybe most of the blame? All of the blame?

IA lofted the jolly roger and thought fear of bad press would protect them, and it's the publisher's fault for not saying, "never mind, you guys destroy the entire economic foundation of the publishing industry, no worries"?

I'm rarely in the anti-pirate camp, but defending IA in this context is pretty extreme.

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by ghaff on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @12:50PM (#23393108)
It's so uncharacteristic of the way the IA normally behaves. Whatever special rights a lot of people think they have as a library, a lot of their archiving operations are on somewhat shaky ground. BUT they're a non-profit, don't monetize with advertising, bend over backwards (further than many think they should) to take down anything anyone with a legitimate claim wants taken down even retroactively, and generally don't do anything that makes them a particularly attractive legal target. Yeah, you can argue about them collecting so much content on essentially an opt-out basis. But, at the end of the day, they do provide an opt-out so it's probably not very attractive to sue them when you can get the same result by asking for a takedown.
Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @12:47PM (#23393075)
Trying to use a crisis to return sanity to copyright law isn't an overreach. The blame lies squarely on those who have spent decades creating draconian copyright law, and those today who defend it. "I'm an author" or "Think of the publishers!" is no excuse for supporting unjust laws.
Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by chipotle_coyote on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @01:00PM (#23393239)
The argument is whether actions like this are the best way to "return sanity to copyright law," though, right? It seems to me there's a lot of space between "eternally extending copyright to keep the first Mickey Mouse cartoons from entering the public domain" and "anyone should be able to do whatever they want with other people's work at any point regardless of the creator's objections."
Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @01:19PM (#23393492)
There is a lot of space, which is why you anchor with the opening salvo and then find middle ground. Keep in mind, the Internet Archive only opened the “National Emergency Library” during a global pandemic. Under business as usual, they put limits on access to scanned works.

Copyright isn’t an inalienable right. It was established for the public good, and up for renegotiation at any time. Now is one of those times.

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by fphhotchips on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @06:41PM (#23397345)
An "opening salvo" has to be more than just throwing ammunition at your enemies. The "but global pandemic" argument will not be very convincing when they roll out authors that also wanted to eat during the pandemic.

No matter what you consider to be the morally correct outcome here, this seems to have been a very risky way to go about things.

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @06:56PM (#23397504)
> when they roll out authors that also wanted to eat during the pandemic.

This is a tired argument. Please prove authors experienced lost sales due to the emergency library IA offered.

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by fphhotchips on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @12:51AM (#23399850)
I don't have to. The publishers do. And I'll bet they can make a better legal argument than "oh we just wanted to because pandemic".
Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by stubish on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:03AM (#23399945)
Seems to be overreaching to me. They have put themselves into a position where they are likely to be sued into the ground, and force others into a position where the only choice is to lose their income or sue them into the ground. They weren't forced into creating this standoff, so at least share the blame.
Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by ApolloFortyNine on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @01:31PM (#23393615)
I'm not sure what the point of owning a digital copy of a book is if I can, at any time, "loan" one from the IA in <15 seconds. In a way it's even more convenient than owning a copy, your basically using IA as cloud storage.

>"I'm an author" or "Think of the publishers!" is no excuse for supporting unjust laws.

Authors want to get paid, this stops them from getting paid...

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by syshum on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @02:09PM (#23394055)
>> "I'm an author" or "Think of the publishers!" is no excuse for supporting unjust laws.

What is sad is most of the people that use that excuse do not believe copyright laws are draconian enough, they want STRONGER copyright laws for publishers, they want it to not only be civil but criminal, they want to put people in jail in a cage if you happen to share your favorite song with a friend.

In short, copyright maximalists are insane

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by matheusmoreira on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @05:10PM (#23396347)
The real overreach is copyright law's hundred year plus monopolies on imaginary property and their lip service to fair use and the public domain.
Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by arkades on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @05:29PM (#23396528)
And the solution to broken copyright law is to ignore it, at the expense of working-class authors, rather than ... working on the law?

You realize this undermines the ability of our society to produce the actual written works that we're arguing so damn valuable that we can't abide locking them behind a paywall?

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by vertex-four on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @07:38PM (#23397835)
People write for free constantly. We're doing it right now, Tumblr was absolutely full of freely available fiction, and there were plenty of stories and technical knowledge written and passed between people before copyright was even a concept in anyone's minds. The primary thing the copyright industry gets us in regards to writing is that some people can get paid doing things others will do for free, and a large body of advertising is created around the non-free works.
Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by stubish on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:09AM (#23399985)
If you stop paying people to write, the only people who write are those who can afford the time. Writing a novel can take years of your life. Books are not fungible, and some books you would want to read will never get written if the author cannot afford to write it.
Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by vertex-four on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @04:46AM (#23401357)
Sure, but we get into a weird place if we try to argue that every thing that possibly might be written must be written - no copyright law is strong enough, we have a moral obligation to buy books we have no interest in, etc etc.

So why is the current copyright system the exact correct system for getting people paid to write, where any stronger or weaker would be bad? I can think of at least a few other possible systems that would get people paid to write as well - maybe an entirely different set of people, so some things would get written that aren’t today and some things that would get written today aren’t under that system. How can we evidence that our current system works best?

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by matheusmoreira on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @06:42PM (#23397363)
> And the solution to broken copyright law is to ignore it

Civil disobedience is a form of peaceful protest.

> You realize this undermines the ability of our society to produce the actual written works

Creators aren't going to stop. They'll find a way. The solution is to somehow get paid for the act of creating rather than the finished work. Patronage and crowdfunding could be the answer.

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by young_unixer on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @01:27PM (#23393576)
I hate intellectual property, but I don't despise the publishers, they're just playing by the (broken) rules of the game.

I blame the politicians that do nothing to change the rules of the game in the first place, and the people that elect them.

Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by nybble41 on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @02:28PM (#23394308)
It is perfectly possible to blame both the politicians that propagate unjust rules and the people that take advantage of them. Both are contributing to injustice, each in their own way.
Re:Lawsuit over online book lending could bankrupt Internet ... by Kye on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @05:45PM (#23396727)
Copyright is the way it is because of publishers of various media lobbying for stronger, longer protection. The politicians are the people they lobby.