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Re:Mapping Police Violence by ecmascript on Monday June 01, 2020 @05:21AM (#23376643)
Also, regular people using guns for crimes is also probably way, way higher than Germany and Japan.

It's not that surprising IMO for a country where there are so many guns for the police to encounter more hostile situations that require utilizing their gun for theirs and others protection.

Guns are a weapon that quickly escalates any situation to life or death.

Re:Mapping Police Violence by danielscrubs on Monday June 01, 2020 @05:38AM (#23376725)
I heard in philosophy there was a discussion that the definition of a state was "violence monopoly", because from that everything else like law, currency-model and more is attained.

It was a long time ago so I probably butchered the description, but I thought it was profound.

Re:Mapping Police Violence by deathgrips on Monday June 01, 2020 @05:59AM (#23376863)
The definition of the state as the "monopoly on violence" only works if you think that states inherently have the right to their power. America, on the other hand, believes that the government gets its power from the people and the people have the right to take away that power if it is misused. In effect, Americans have contractually given the state the essential powers of violence but still keep the means to take that power back. That's why Americans have had the right to firearms before the United States even existed.
Re:Mapping Police Violence by Udik on Monday June 01, 2020 @06:23AM (#23377013)
> The definition of the state as the "monopoly on violence" only works if you think that states inherently have the right to their power.

Not at all. The idea is that the state has a mandate from its citizens to exercise violence (within due limits) to enforce the decisions of the citizens. It's a monopoly because citizens don't have the right to use violence against each other, and even if they do the state is guaranteed to be able to respond with enough force to make it stop.

> In effect, Americans have contractually given the state the essential powers of violence but still keep the means to take that power back.

This justification to arms ownership always strikes me as delusional. Whatever the amount of weapons in circulation there is absolutely no way American citizens could fight their own police and their own army.

Re:Mapping Police Violence by deathgrips on Monday June 01, 2020 @03:13PM (#23382463)
>citizens don't have the right to use violence against each other

Do people have the right to self defense? Are police legally obligated to keep you safe?

>there is absolutely no way American citizens could fight their own police and their own army

Please tell me the last time America won a war against a militia or insurrection embedded in the civilian population.

Re:Mapping Police Violence by Udik on Monday June 01, 2020 @03:35PM (#23382747)
> Do people have the right to self defense?

Of course, but that's a last resort. You cannot ask someone who is in risk of imminent harm not to defend him/herself, although that should be the minimum use of force needed to fend off the danger (in the US as usual the law is less strict, in Europe you can shoot to defend your life but if it's proven that in that exact moment your life wasn't in danger you'll be charged).

> Please tell me the last time America won a war against a militia or insurrection embedded in the civilian population.

A clear case must be in 1865, when the Union won the civil war- at the cost of between 600k and 1 million dead. But there's of endless instances of the US police or national guard using force to repress protests, uprising and terrorism- as it is normal. It's hard to say whether these movements could have been more widespread if they hadn't been repressed through intelligence and use of force.

But can you point out an example of when a militia or an insurrection won against the US police or national guard?

Re:Mapping Police Violence by deathgrips on Monday June 01, 2020 @08:54PM (#23385973)
>But can you point out an example of when a militia or an insurrection won against the US police or national guard?

Afghanistan, 2016.

Re:Mapping Police Violence by Udik on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @12:42AM (#23387533)
Haha
Re:Mapping Police Violence by danielscrubs on Monday June 01, 2020 @07:52AM (#23377516)
> if you think that states inherently have the right to their power.

Why would I think that?

I'm saying that from the violence monopoly everything else is upheld by a first principle approach. If the state is overthrown the violence monopoly is either upheld by a new group, or you have no governing state.

Re:Mapping Police Violence by deathgrips on Monday June 01, 2020 @03:12PM (#23382448)
Do you think people have the right to use violence for self defense? If so, who can people defend themselves from? Who can't they defend themselves from?
Re:Mapping Police Violence by danielscrubs on Monday June 01, 2020 @04:32PM (#23383426)
I don't condone anything. It is simply a definition that is used. I found this that explains it way better:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

Re:Mapping Police Violence by deathgrips on Monday June 01, 2020 @05:49AM (#23376801)
Wrong. The rate of gun ownership is not the primary predictor of the murder rate in America. I live in a state where over two thirds of people own guns, but the murder rate (and police killing rate) is very low.
Re:Mapping Police Violence by Ensorceled on Monday June 01, 2020 @05:58AM (#23376859)
The comment you are replying to is asserting that the prevalence of guns mean that guns are more likely to appear/be used in a violent crime, not that they increase violent crime. Your "wrong" is not justified by your evidence.
Re:Mapping Police Violence by moksly on Monday June 01, 2020 @06:08AM (#23376921)
You can have a high amount of gun ownership and low gun related crimes. But the countries hailed for high gun ownership and low gun crime like Switzerland have some hefty gun control. You can’t buy guns without going through hunting training, getting certified and then they keep registration which links your hunting rifle directly to you. You also can’t buy stuff that’s meant to kill humans and it’s illegal not to lock your weapons securely away when you aren’t hunting.

So criminals actually don’t have easy access to guns in these countries, and post terrorism our secret police forces and Europol tracks guns rather well, typically leading to arrests before anyone get to use their guns.

Re:Mapping Police Violence by wdroz on Monday June 01, 2020 @07:30AM (#23377390)
> You can’t buy guns without going through hunting training, getting certified and then they keep registration which links your hunting rifle directly to you

In Switzerland, it's very easy[0] to acquire a weapons, the requirements are:

  - you must be at least 18 years old,
  - you must not be subject to a deputyship or a supervision order,
  - you must not give any cause to assume that you could harm yourself or anyone else with the weapon,
  - you must not have a criminal record for violent or dangerous offences or repeated felonies or misdemeanours.
[0] - https://www.ch.ch/en/acquiring-firearm/
Re:Mapping Police Violence by throwaway0a5e on Monday June 01, 2020 @06:44AM (#23377143)
> But the countries hailed for high gun ownership and low gun crime like Switzerland have some hefty gun control.

Middle of Nowheretown USA (and Canada for that matter) tends to have astronomically high gun ownership rates and astronomically low "gun crime" or any violent crime other than domestic violence and people who are known to each other engaging in fisticuffs over preexisting disputes. I don't think it's the mandatory class you need to pretend not to sleep though and bureaucratic red tape that's keeping people from shooting each other. It's the lack of a society and economy (victim supply) capable of sustaining a "large enough to show up in the statistics" number of career violent criminals that keeps violent crime and therefore gun crime low in both places.

Re:Mapping Police Violence by ajuc on Monday June 01, 2020 @07:33AM (#23377406)
EU has almost twice the population of USA and it has several countries with high gun ownership and no border control between these countries and the rest of the EU (Schengen Zone to be exact, but it doesn't matter here).

The crazy high crime, murder and incarceration rates in USA aren't caused by population size. They are caused by inequalities inherent in American system.

If a whole class of your society can't hope for their kids to get a white collar job, and have to fear losing their house if they ever get seriously ill - that's not a stable basis for a peaceful society.

Re:Mapping Police Violence by throwaway0a5e on Monday June 01, 2020 @09:14AM (#23378041)
You seem to be reading an implied meaning I wasn't intending into my comment. My point, which you seem to be agreeing with while somehow also disagreeing at the same time is that it's not the ease of access to firearms that's driving violence, it's other societal factors. Nowhere did I say anything about overall population being a driver of violence.

I really hate how I find myself having to go to greater and greater lengths to disclaim my words around here to not have them twisted or stretched to imply something.

US murder and incarceration rates are more or less solely caused by the war on drugs. Once you remove people who are involved in the manufacture, transportation and sale of illicit substances from the crime stats the place looks a lot like the better parts of western Europe.

Yes, wealth equality, social mobility and healthcare have a hell of a lot of room for improvement but they are not the driver of violence in the US. Forcing a multi-billion dollar industry to exist outside the law is what is driving violence.

Re:Mapping Police Violence by ajuc on Monday June 01, 2020 @11:06AM (#23379269)
I disagree with the part about population size being a factor, so that's what I responded to. I also admit I misread you comment a little (sorry, not a native speaker and I wass reading it on a coffee break at work).

> US murder and incarceration rates are more or less solely caused by the war on drugs

That's what you would expect if drug trade is the most profitable crime, no matter if drugs are the reason these people went into crime in the first place. If you can't afford your expected lifestyle within the system you go outside the system. Once there you choose the crime with the highest profit per risk factor.

There's plenty of countries that penalize drug ownership that have order of magnitude less crime than USA.

Re:Mapping Police Violence by deathgrips on Monday June 01, 2020 @03:28PM (#23382658)
My state has basically no gun control. You can buy an AR-15 with no background check from a third party and not get it registered. No registration necessary for open carrying rifles or pistols. We still have one of the lowest crime rates in America. I fail to see the correlation between gun control and gun crime in America.
Re:Mapping Police Violence by pas on Monday June 01, 2020 @05:05PM (#23383806)
Poverty, education, inequality, institutional problems are much more likely to be correlated with crime, so it's not exactly that surprising. Now of course the problem is that what should the states/regions/counties/cities do that have gun violence. Eg. if I remember correctly Chicago/Illinois tried various forms of gun control, but it made an impact next to nothing because it was pretty easy to just get guns from out of city/state.
Re:Mapping Police Violence by deathgrips on Monday June 01, 2020 @08:57PM (#23385992)
My state is one of the poorer states and worst educated states in America.