I use Swarm in production and am learning k8s as fast as possible because of how bad Swarm is:

1. Swarm is dead in the water. No big releases/development afaik recently

2. Swarm for me has been a disaster because after a couple of days some of my nodes slowly start failing (although they’re perfectly normal) and I have to manually remove each node from the swarm, join them, and start everything up again. I think this might be because of some WireGuard incompatibility, but the strange thing is that it works for a week sometimes and other times just a few hours

3. Lack of GPU support

To add another side, I use Swarm in production and continue to do so because of how good it is.

I've had clusters running for years without issue. I've even used it for packaging B2B software, where customers use it both in cloud and on-prem - no issues whatsoever.

I've looked at k8s a few times, but it's vastly more complex than Swarm (which is basically Docker Compose with cluster support), and would add nothing for my use case.

I'm sure a lot of people need the functionality that k8s brings, but I'm also sure that many would be better suited to Swarm.

Yeah I guess for smaller projects and the addition of using Docker Compose files, Swarm would be worth it.

If K8s supported compose scripts out of the box (not Kompose) that'd basically make Swarm unnecessary (at least for me)

This happened to me too when I was using swarm in 2017. Had to debug swarm networks where nodes could send packets one way but not the other. Similar problems as #2 where stuff just breaks and resetting the node is the quickest way I found to fix it.

Switched to k8s in late 2017 and it’s been much more solid. And that’s where the world has moved, so I’m not sure why you’d choose swarm anymore.

> What else do you need before you hit corporation-scale requirements?

Cronjobs, configmaps, and dynamically allocated persistent volumes have been big ones for our small corporation. Access control also, but I'm less aware of the details here, other than that our ops is happier to hand out credentials with limited access, which was somehow much more difficult with swarm

Swarm has frankly also been buggy. "Dead" but still running containers - sometimes visible to swarm, sometimes only the local Docker daemon - happen every 1-2 months, and it takes forever to figure out what's going on each time.

A little off topic but why do these orchestration tools always prefer to use YAML as I really feel it a harder to understand format than JSON or better TOML and it's the only thing that I don't like about Ansible.

I see ruby kind of uses YAML often but are people comfortable editing YAML files? I always have to look up how to do arrays and such when I edit them once in a while.

> when I edit them once in a while

Anything new needs a certain amount of sustained practice before you get the hang of it. I think I had to learn regex like four times before it stuck. I haven’t hit that point with TOML yet so I avoid it.

I’d suggest using the deeper indentation style where hyphens for arrays are also indented two spaces under the parent element. Like anything use a linter that enforces unambiguous indentation.

I prefer YAML for human-writeable config because JSON is just more typing and more finicky. The auto-typing of numbers and booleans in YAML is a pretty damn sharp edge though and I wish they’d solved that some other way.