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Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by Svip on Friday May 29, 2020 @02:40AM (#23346913)
The tragedy of democracies is that it does not really encourage democracies elsewhere. As leaders of a democracy strive for high living standards within their own borders, wages and thus the cost of living goes up. But participants in a democracy (i.e. the voters) still wish to encourage their leaders for cheaper products. Be it bananas or electronics.

In an isolated system, the consequence of such advances in social structures should be that the newer higher cost of living is the price one pays for a higher standard of living. But countries aren't isolated, and thus democratic leaders try to exploit less democratic countries for their own benefits, be it via covert action, foreign aid or other forms of diplomatic pressure.

China, on the other hand, is one of the few (former, I should say) developing nations that have fought back, once they gained enough political power internationally. The Western world have become heavily reliant on China and its cheap production engine (to put it very simply), and China can thus force the same Western democracies to side with them on diplomatic issues closer to their home.

Ask an American or a Frenchman how important to their livelihood Hong Kong's freedom or Taiwan's independence is, and they would probably rate it low among their list of priorities. Their cheap electronics come first. Does it matter to a Canadian shopkeeper whether Muslim minorities in China are treated humanely? Probably not as much as access to Chinese manufactured equipment.

You may be quick to think our leaders are corrupted by the Chinese regime, but in reality, they are merely doing what their voters want them to do. Voters tend to be rather narrowly focused on what is in front of them, rather than wanting their government spent money and resources on someone else's freedom. Particularly if those regimes avoid directly attacking those democracies (see Pearl Harbor for an example of this mistake).

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by jsnider3 on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:08AM (#23347069)
> The tragedy of democracies is that it does not really encourage democracies elsewhere.

This is actually false. The reason Russia and China care so much about Ukraine and Taiwan, is because they worry having a functional democracy next door may destabilize their own regimes.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by jacquesm on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:12AM (#23347092)
Russia cares about Ukraine for another reason: strategic access to the Black Sea.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by sergeykish on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:52AM (#23347384)
Russian government use external enemy to shift attention from internal problems. All state owned media attention is on Chechnya, Abkhazia, Crimea. "The might of the russian troops"... Tsarism never ended, it just shifts masks.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by distances on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:35AM (#23347224)
Russia has no shortage of top-notch democracies next door.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by JumpCrisscross on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:53AM (#23347394)
> Russia has no shortage of top-notch democracies next door

Correct, but none with a Slavic majority. Similar with China. Lots of democracies. None with mostly Han Chinese.

The threat to both comes from the disabling of their argument that democracy doesn’t work for “their” people. It’s difficult for Russia to define a set of people that encompasses its population but excludes Ukrainians. Same for Beijing with respect to Hong Kong and Taiwan.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by dntbnmpls on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:50AM (#23347362)
> The reason Russia and China care so much about Ukraine and Taiwan, is because they worry having a functional democracy next door may destabilize their own regimes.

China cared about Taiwan when it was a authoritarian dictatorship for most of its history. I don't think it's a matter of government but a matter of lost territory. Using your logic, the north was worried about the functional democracy of the confederacy.

Even if taiwan adopted communism, it wouldn't matter because it's a matter of territorial integrity. Meaning, it's just as lightly that we'd let south carolina secede than china would allow taiwan to leave.

As for russia, considering that it's a democratic republic, I don't think they are too worried about that. What they are worried about is the geopolitical issues with ukraine - especially foreign interference in ukraine.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by mattmanser on Friday May 29, 2020 @02:45AM (#23346940)
You're confusing/conflating capitalism with democracy.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by Svip on Friday May 29, 2020 @02:49AM (#23346956)
You can argue that democracy is merely an empty shell wherein to levy opinions. And in that context, I am talking about liberal capitalist democracies. But the voters themselves are capitalist, or rather don't have a problem with capitalism, hence why they don't vote leaders out that follow a capitalistic line.

But I would not say I am conflating the two. The simple equation is that democracy does not foster democracy by itself. Capitalism in those democracies hinters that.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by redis_mlc on Friday May 29, 2020 @02:46AM (#23346946)
> they are merely doing what their voters want them to do

they are merely doing what their lobbyists want them to do

FTFY.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by Svip on Friday May 29, 2020 @02:54AM (#23346984)
I too wish I could relief myself of any responsibility, and levy the blame entirely on the corrupt system, that I have little-to-no influence over. But the truth is, the people of any democracy are the true source of power. And if I asked you to join me in rising up against our current flawed political system, you'd probably hesitate as you are probably doing well enough to not wanting to rock the boat.

I know this, because I am the same. I recognise that our systems are flawed, but I also recognise that I - as a voter - am partially to blame for this. And yet, I also feel comfortable enough to let and let live.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by luckylion on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:23AM (#23347148)
> But the truth is, the people of any democracy are the true source of power.

They may be the horses towing the cart, but they are not the driver. You are right that they won't want to revolt and potentially destroy the system because it's working "well enough" for them, but that's far from being the ones who decide the course of the nation.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by redis_mlc on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:25PM (#23356785)
I don't even know where to start with this.

When you have 2 parties that nominate oligarchs, your vote is already wasted.

The only influence that the average citizen has is to get involved at the city council level and help the right people climb into influence.

But when you have to choose between Trump and a Clinton, it's too late to make a difference.