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Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by tombert on Thursday May 28, 2020 @04:58PM (#23342520)
Oh my goodness is he a big dumb stupid moron.

At the risk of this being downvoted to oblivion, why doesn't he think that Twitter, a privately run company, has the right to fact-check claims made on their site? Even if there were some secret evil liberal agenda on Twitter, which there absolutely is not, why aren't they allowed to do that exactly? Is he planning on holding Fox News to the same standard and make them put less racism apologia on their network?

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by apostacy on Thursday May 28, 2020 @05:22PM (#23342830)
Well, is Verizon allowed to use packet injection to "fact check" a website you view over their internet connection?

Because seems to be presenting themselves as a neutral platform, which they have shown themselves to not be.

EDIT: Just to clarify, obviously Twitter is not presenting themselves to users as a neutral platform. But for legal purposes, they are cloaking themselves in the same privileged status as a phone company, when they clearly are not.

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by tombert on Thursday May 28, 2020 @05:25PM (#23342868)
A) Twitter has never presented itself as a neutral platform. They've banned white supremacists, dangerous conspiracy nuts like Alex Jones, and even left-leaning people like Destiny when he joked about how he was going to bomb Comcast.

B) Verizon (Comcast, Spectrum, etc...) are closer to something like a utility. I wouldn't be supportive of a water or electricity company not providing services to people I disagree with. Twitter is not a utility, it's a glorified fortune-cookie-sharing site. It's a not a "right", and there's no reason that you should feel entitled to it.

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by partyboat1586 on Thursday May 28, 2020 @05:35PM (#23342978)
Twitter is _the_ place where political discourse happens not just _a_ place where it happens. It's an unfortunate state of affairs that they happen to be a private company with a bias.
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by asdgopiahsogfi on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:14PM (#23343492)
Here's simple fact check. Twitter is not _the_ place where political discourse happens. You're discussing politics on HN right now.
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by partyboat1586 on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:17PM (#23343521)
It's the place that regularly gets quoted on major networks and newspapers. This is a minority website with nowhere near as much impact.
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by asdgopiahsogfi on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:23PM (#23343585)
That still doesn't make it _the_ place for political discourse. Reddit gets quoted quite often. Tons of politicians do AMA on Reddit and Facebook. Just because Trump is on Twitter doesn't make it special.
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by pas on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:31PM (#23343699)
That's not how these kinds of "facts" work. If someone tried to use this during some kind of proceeding the court will determine this. (Using a jury or not, expert witnesses or not, doesn't matter.)

Usually fact checking "services" like snopes.com, politifact, or WaPo with the pinocchio heads, have a consistent model about what they are willing to touch, how they approach it, and how they determine factualness, etc.

Just throwing out that Twitter is or isn't _the_ platform makes no sense.

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by partyboat1586 on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:25PM (#23343616)
Every major public figure is on Twitter. That is the difference. Reddit is still small fry.
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by rsynnott on Thursday May 28, 2020 @05:35PM (#23342987)
> Because seems to be presenting themselves as a neutral platform

Eh? Twitter bans accounts _all the time_. It hides stuff from search, and hides potentially explicit content behind an "are you sure you want to see this?" It is in no way a neutral platform. Fact-checking world leaders was originally conceived by twitter as an alternative to just banning them when they get dangerous.

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by apostacy on Thursday May 28, 2020 @05:45PM (#23343121)
> Eh? Twitter bans accounts _all the time_. It hides stuff from search, and hides potentially explicit content behind an "are you sure you want to see this?"

Right, so why are they trying to claim that they are a neutral platform then, for legal purposes, when they very clearly are not one??

Twitter responds to any lawsuits by claiming that they are a neutral disinterested platform, when they very clearly are not. They enjoy the same legal protections as the phone company, when they obviously are not at all the same!

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by rsynnott on Thursday May 28, 2020 @05:51PM (#23343197)
> Right, so why are they trying to claim that they are a neutral platform then, for legal purposes, when they very clearly are not one??

Where are they claiming that? There's no such requirement under the CDA (if there was, then any website with a stated political or other stance and a comments section would be in serious trouble).

> Twitter responds to any lawsuits by claiming that they are a neutral disinterested platform, when they very clearly are not.

Examples of this?

> They enjoy the same legal protections as the phone company

No, they don't. Totally different protections.

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by fooey on Thursday May 28, 2020 @05:31PM (#23342934)
1. Verizon is a common carrier, Twitter is not

2. Twitter has never had any obligation to be a neutral platform

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by nkassis on Thursday May 28, 2020 @05:30PM (#23342921)
I believe they can, comcast actually has injected javascript into websites in the past using a similar technique.

https://gizmodo.com/comcast-to-customer-who-noticed-it-secre...

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by holler on Thursday May 28, 2020 @05:35PM (#23342989)
can you imagine the horror on HN if this were really a thing?
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by beart on Thursday May 28, 2020 @07:27PM (#23344346)
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by space_fountain on Friday May 29, 2020 @01:10AM (#23346464)
> But for legal purposes, they are cloaking themselves in the same privileged status as a phone company

Hum I don't think that could possibly be true. What leads you to think this? Phone companies existed before Section 230 and as far as I know their behavior didn't change. Have you read Section 230? It definitely reads like it was passed to give entities like Twitter more power to delete objectionable content and it definitely doesn't read to me like it obligates them to be neutral.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/230

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by CyberDildonics on Thursday May 28, 2020 @08:19PM (#23344807)
Legally they can probably get away with it, since it has happened with other ISPs. The technical reason this doesn't happen is due to your connection a website being encrypted.
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by lgleason on Thursday May 28, 2020 @05:40PM (#23343050)
The order does not say that they don't have the right to fact check. It simply says that they don't have the right to fact check and enjoy section 230 immunity.
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by javagram on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:08PM (#23343405)
FoxNews.com has comments on their website.

By the logic of the order, Fox News should also lose their immunity and be liable for suit for anything posted by commenters to their online articles.

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by Mirioron on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:48PM (#23343897)
This actually happened to a news site in Estonia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delfi_AS_v._Estonia

There was a later ruling in Hungary that seemed to go the other way though: https://globalfreedomofexpression.columbia.edu/cases/magyar-...

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by njudah on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:31PM (#23343698)
This. Exactly.
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by 2019-nCoV on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:36PM (#23343760)
Where have Fox News editorialised users content?
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by sixstringtheory on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:47PM (#23343893)
> FoxNews.com and FoxBusiness.com do use moderation in an effort to maintain a safe and respectful environment in our online community. If your comment or username includes vulgar, racist, threatening, or otherwise offensive language, it will be removed.

https://help.foxnews.com/hc/en-us/articles/233194608-Do-you-...

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by isoskeles on Thursday May 28, 2020 @07:32PM (#23344389)
It's disingenuous to compare political speech to, for example, copy/pasting the N word a dozen times. It seems reasonable for a "neutral" platform to allow "moderation" of the latter, but perhaps not the former.
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by sixstringtheory on Thursday May 28, 2020 @07:44PM (#23344494)
The question was

> Where have Fox News editorialised (sic) users content?

not

> Where have Fox News editorialised (sic) users political speech?

so my reply should in no way construe my opinion of what is or is not political speech.

Now that we've established that Fox News does in fact editorialize user content, we can move on to the original question of whether or not they should now

> be liable for suit for anything posted by commenters to their online articles

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by isoskeles on Thursday May 28, 2020 @07:57PM (#23344610)
> pretending content is not often political speech
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by CyberDildonics on Thursday May 28, 2020 @08:15PM (#23344772)
The person you are replying to explicitly said that is not the point in the larger issue.
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by isoskeles on Thursday May 28, 2020 @08:30PM (#23344904)
Sorry, you don't just get to decide what is a larger point in some discussion.

The law is capable of distinguishing between ideas, including whether content is good-faith speech or trolling. Pretending the two are the same and that a law could not possibly allow for a platform to moderate the latter without sacrificing its "neutrality" seems unreasonable.

I think it is a valid question that could be scrutinized in court, but there is no need to be obtuse about the fact that these are different categories of speech that the law could treat differently specifically with regard to how it would categorize ("neutrality" of) a platform on the internet, not whether or not the speech is entirely forbidden period.

[dead]
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by isoskeles on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:52PM (#23345481)
> You keep going back and forth between 'political speech' being the same or different, but you hallucinated that as having anything to do with the discussion.

I definitely never varied my own view on this. You most likely misinterpreted my first comment and the quote ">", or worse, you're being intentionally dishonest.

In any case, go read the EO. Right now, your opinion amounts to, "Trump bad, therefore removing a comment that spams racial slurs is the same as editorializing a comment that states a political opinion."

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by jbeam on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:03PM (#23345144)
The point of the order is to say “publishers” do not have Section 230 immunity and that Twitters actions constitute making it a publisher.

Fox News is already publisher under any reasonable definition.

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by javagram on Thursday May 28, 2020 @10:43PM (#23345773)
Under section 230, Fox News is not liable to suit if someone not affiliated with Fox posts illegal content on their comments on their website.

They are liable to suit if Fox News employees post illegal content on their website.

Twitter has the exact same treatment under the law today. It’s not liable for suit when Trump tweets lies about Joe Scarborough. But if @jack or @TwitterSafety tweeted the same lies, it could be sued in court for libel and section 230 would not be a defense.

Fox and twitter are already equal in eyes of the law today.

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by gamblor956 on Thursday May 28, 2020 @07:00PM (#23344042)
That's wrong. They have the right to fact check. They simply might not have section 230 immunity with respect to the fact check because that is self-generated content.

They still enjoy immunity with respect to user-posted content, because that is part of the explicit language of the statute and a Presidential Order can't override statutory language.

[dead]
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by jayspell on Thursday May 28, 2020 @05:35PM (#23342981)
I hate the term "these people" some of "these people" meet some of your criteria but not all. You would likely place me in the category of "these people" because I believe social media favors the left side of arguments. I believe in a fair an open internet, let ideas be shared and stop censoring. Every group is a hypocrite, but everyone feels justified in their hypocrisy. It would go a long way if we stopped dividing each other up into camps.
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by evan_ on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:12PM (#23343474)
> I believe social media favors the left side of arguments

> It would go a long way if we stopped dividing each other up into camps.

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by beefok on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:52PM (#23343942)
Is it not the right of private companies, social media or otherwise, to choose how they distribute information?

Also, the only division I've ever seen is from people who can't handle a coffee cup that says "Happy Holidays" on it.

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by jayspell on Friday May 29, 2020 @10:44AM (#23350477)
I agree with this, free enterprise is amazing. A company should be free to set the standards of the service they provide. But I also believe that Standard Oil needed to be broken up and Microsoft needed to be reined in. I believe we all feel the need to exercise some degree of oversight on these giant corporations. Not long ago there was a lot of discussion about Hobby Lobby and its fight against some of the healthcare regulations passed by President Obama. Issues are always more nuanced than the internet makes them appear. I believe there is plenty of divisiveness on both sides, it doesn't take much to find examples of both. That is kind of my point, we are feeding a monster and don't seem to realize it.
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by pchristensen on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:06PM (#23343382)
Not to put words in the parent comment's mouth, but I would guess he mans "these people" = leaders of the Republic party, primarily Trump and McConnell. Many other Republican leaders and I assume most conservative voters still have morals, right and wrong, etc, but it's those two at the top and a handful of others in power that have made the Republic party's actions amoral and power-centric.
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by ngcc_hk on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:55PM (#23343976)
Pots ok. But is McConnell is elected among equals. He can be removed? The rest of republican leaders, party and voters to them (and pots) cannot be totally spare. At least not in the next cycle. If they are both re-elected (McConnell is “re-elected” everyday in a sense).
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by munificent on Friday May 29, 2020 @12:28PM (#23352055)
> I hate the term "these people" some of "these people" meet some of your criteria but not all.

I used "these people" to refer to the people that are not like the ones I described in my first paragraph. There are certainly those on the left and right who are decent, moral people. Would it have helped if instead of "these people" I'd said "people not like that?" Those are basically equivalent in terms of what I intended to say.

> You would likely place me in the category of "these people" because I believe social media favors the left side of arguments.

No, I think you're jumping to a conclusion that I was referring to conservatives or those on the right as a whole but nowhere in my text did I do that. I said "Trump (and many in the GOP)". I didn't make any mention of the right. There are many conservatives and people on the right who are not Republicans and I explicitly noted that there are Republicans for whom my claim doesn't apply.

I can understand being sensitive to this issue since it's hard being a conservative in progressive circles these days, but I don't think it's reasonable to construe that my comment applied to you.

> I believe in a fair an open internet, let ideas be shared and stop censoring.

I didn't state any opinion for or against what Twitter did or how Trump reacted.

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by jessaustin on Thursday May 28, 2020 @07:53PM (#23344573)
The Right used to abhor postmodernism, and were properly mocked by the Left whenever they whinged about it.

Now the Right have embraced postmodernism, and the Left have no idea how to respond.

TV news corporations know how to respond, and they've done the same thing for five years now. They keep him (or his empty lectern) on TV as much as they possibly can. Ratings gold!

Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by person_of_color on Thursday May 28, 2020 @07:27PM (#23344349)
How can it be stopped?
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by rbanffy on Thursday May 28, 2020 @05:59PM (#23343294)
This. Being right or fair is not Trump's goal here.
Re:Trump signs executive order targeting protections for soc... by mmazing on Thursday May 28, 2020 @05:27PM (#23342889)
Well put.