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Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by SiempreViernes on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @12:24PM (#23325648)
From the source article:

"Certain countries were deliberately not allowed to join because within the Maximator alliance they were considered as lacking relevant (signal-/crypto-analytical) expertise and/or experience. Allegedly, these countries include Norway, Spain and Italy."

And

"Belgium is a notable exception in north-western Europe; it had not been invited to join Maximator because of its lack of SIGINT (and COMSEC) capabilities." adding in a footnote that "Belgium’s cryptographic behaviour and discipline were problematic. For instance, at least once it compromised its own communications via a basic mistake in key management;"

:D

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by SiempreViernes on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @12:40PM (#23325943)
"The details of this algorithm were shared by the BND within Maximator with TIVC. This enabled the Dutch to read Argentinian naval and diplomatic communications before the war started. As reported by Aldrich and Wiebes, the British SIGINT organisation GCHQ had neglected Argentina. It was not able to read communications secured by Crypto AG devices. When the war started, it asked, under pressure, countries on the European continent for help. A directly involved Dutch source states that at that stage a specialist from TIVC travelled to GCHQ and explained how the HC500 Crypto AG devices for Argentinian naval and diplomatic communications worked; subsequent solution of the ciphers was left to GCHQ itself."

Nice going GCHQ!

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @01:18PM (#23326557)
This reads like GCHQ was the naughty kid, not paying attention, and they took pity on them when they asked for help ... but at least they asked. But to rub it in they did a "the solution is left as an exercise for the reader" deal. Kinda hilarious.
Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by jack12 on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @07:14PM (#23331334)
It sounds like the solution was always left as an exercise for the reader in the day-to-day dealings of the group even among the members: "Each participating country was supposed to perform its own decryptions. This is common practice in the intelligence community in order to prevent being fed cooked-up information." and "The cryptanalytical part of the cooperation involved exchanges of algorithms used in various (deliberately weakened) cryptographic devices used by target countries. It was then left up to the Maximator participants themselves to find out how to exploit weaknesses in the algorithms of these devices. Such exploitations are also called ‘solutions’."
Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by blaser-waffle on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @02:47PM (#23327956)
That was my read as well.

That said, you could spin it another way: the UK had enough good will and political capital to lean on its European neighbors for a bare-minimum amount of help. "We can tell you how it works, but it's on you to figure the rest out".

Naughty kid not paying attention is also relevant -- you've only got so many hours in the day and so many hours to map out threats. This was still the Cold War and nuclear holocaust was a bigger priority than distant Latin American dictatorship.

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by tinco on Thursday May 28, 2020 @04:03AM (#23334723)
I think it's about plausible deniability. If they only told gchq about the design of the algorithms, they're not saying they know how to break them or even that they're designed to be breakable.
Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by dmurray on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @09:33PM (#23332397)
It's interesting how many strings Britain was able to pull to get advantages in the Falklands War. It also was reported [0] that Thatcher convinced the French to hand over IFF codes that would effectively prevent Argentina's French-made Exocet missiles from targeting British ships. The war might have gone very differently if Argentina was the one with powerful diplomatic connections.

Yes, both France and the Netherlands are broadly aligned with the UK, and would fight alongside them in the case of any existential threat. But for colonial wars one might think they'd be happy to see Britain get some egg on her face.

[0] I'll just link to skeptics.se here, where the accepted answer is that the evidence does not completely support this, but there are plenty of links for more reading https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/11152/can-exoce...

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by pnako on Thursday May 28, 2020 @02:28AM (#23334104)
According to this source (perhaps not completely credible) she called then French President Mitterrand and threatened to nuke Argentina if he did not give her the codes

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/22/books.france

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by barry-cotter on Thursday May 28, 2020 @01:02AM (#23333561)
> Yes, both France and the Netherlands are broadly aligned with the UK, and would fight alongside them in the case of any existential threat. But for colonial wars one might think they'd be happy to see Britain get some egg on her face.

Any “friend” who won’t help with small things is a lot less likely to help when it really matters. And the Dutch and French both also have possessions in the New World full of people perfectly happy with the status quo who deserve protection from would be conquerors.

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by redis_mlc on Friday May 29, 2020 @08:26AM (#23349148)
Argentina ordered 15 Super-Etendards and AM39 Exocets from France. They received 5 of each, with 1 plane used for parts. The Sheffield was destroyed with one exocet, and 2 sank the Atlantic Conveyor (with most of the Army's supplies and helicopters.) An AM38 sank the Glamorgan.

Looks like the IFF info didn't help.

(Had either of the British carriers Hermes or Invincible been sunk, Britain would have retreated.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet#Falklands_War

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by wrnr on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @01:33PM (#23326802)
Hey maybe thats why we have this old joke is Brussels: How do you know someone is working for the Belgium secretive service? ... They tell you.
Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by koonsolo on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @05:31PM (#23330292)
Belgian here. We are one of the most highly taxed countries, so you really wonder were all that money is going.

Belgium is as divided as the EU itself. We have 6 distict governments: federal, flemish, walloon, french, german and brussels. That doesn't help in any way.

The things that happen here are sometimes too crazy to mention, like the time a serialkiller escaped because the 2 cops guarding him didn't do their job, and also didn't have any bullets in their guns to stop him. Surreal.

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by gipsies on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @09:05PM (#23332178)
What's actually interesting is that they have some world-top cryptographers and security researchers (e.g. invented AES and SHA-3). So part of that money goes to academia, and with good results :) The government agencies are lagging behind though.
Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by koonsolo on Thursday May 28, 2020 @03:23AM (#23334448)
We definitely have the people. But even in academia the good ones will go to US because the budgets they get for research are way higher.
Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by onetimemanytime on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @02:59PM (#23328159)
NATO and EU headquarters are located in Belgium....

But this will not work (at least for decades.) To get favors from US many will spill the beans. And that's not as bad as doing that to Russia or China. EU is made of countries with their own national interests

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by supernova87a on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @03:28PM (#23328608)
The reason they cannot cooperate is that the member states will always want to apply their own rules and local regulations, and allow different levels of incompetence across jurisdictions.

Specifically, Belgian police and standards are a joke. Just look at the way they bungled the response to the French terrorist attack where the perpetrator(s) fled to Brussels / Molenbeek. The rest of the country might be ok, but Brussels has exposed that the Belgian government is unable to govern its own largest city. And how Belgian passports are issued locally by every town government rather than a centralized authority. A joke.

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by koheripbal on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @03:07PM (#23328297)
It is disappointing to continue to see such rampant fragmentation within Europe.

I had hoped that the EU would break down regulatory barriers and force bureaucratic consolidation, but it seems progress has stalled in the last 10 years.

The EU should have one single intelligence agency - not a dysfunctional collection of fighting to be part of the "in" group.

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by simonh on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @04:01PM (#23329151)
That would be very premature, you’d need much stronger political union first. The risk is the joint Intelligence agency would end up as leaky and compromised as the most leaky, most compromised intelligence agency of the individual countries. That would make the sum equal to the weakest of its parts.
Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by jhelphenstine on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @05:14PM (#23330078)
One single intelligence agency? And what if the Germans are interested in gaining better understanding of Viktor Orban? Or if the Italians want to know just how far Germany will really go to help them financially? An intelligence agency is a means of acquiring answers to intelligence needs - I'm not sure Europe is of one mind with regard to what questions merit answering.
Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by seppin on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @06:32PM (#23330931)
Exactly. You'd need a single united economic and political union first.

The EU is heading away from that, not towards it.

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by normalnorm on Thursday May 28, 2020 @02:36AM (#23334166)
How do you figure that?

The EU is an economic and political union. It might not be complete or perfect, but integration has been happening decade by decade. We now have a single currency, a unified supreme court, a single charter of citizen rights, freedom of movement and a single market. A lot of younger people feel European, there is such a thing as an European identity. Each one of these things was considered impossible at a certain point. It is a slow and hard process but it is happening.

I find that the English-speaking media is particularly keen on repeating the mantra that "the EU is collapsing". I've witnessed this all my life. It became more intense now with Brexit, but the UK was not ever a real member. It opted out and demanded exceptions for everything. Unfortunately, the EU had to be built around the UK, not with it. There was also a shift in attitude with the current administration in the US, which sees the EU as an adversary instead of as a friend. So I would take anything I read in English about the EU with a pinch of salt...

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by JetSetWilly on Thursday May 28, 2020 @05:59AM (#23335485)
> the UK was not ever a real member. It opted out and demanded exceptions for everything. Unfortunately, the EU had to be built around the UK, not with it.

There's a tendency among hardcore europhiles to blame the nasty british for all questioning of the European ideal, as though if it weren't for perfidious albion Europe would be of one mind.

This completely ignores both the deep euroscepticism felt by many people across the EU(which European countries tend to just ignore instead of being so hasty like Britain as to actually have a referendum - and if a referendum must be held, just have it again and again until you get the right answer...) and also ignores that other countries have differing opinions to France and Germany too.

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by normalnorm on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:34AM (#23335703)
> There's a tendency among hardcore europhiles to blame the nasty british for all questioning of the European ideal, as though if it weren't for perfidious albion Europe would be of one mind.

Perhaps, but that was not what I said at all. What I said is that the UK always chose to not participate in the project, and that the project went on without it. Now, with Brexit, the UK government is openly hostile towards the EU. This is just a fact. Another fact is that the EU was able to maintain a united political front when faced with Brexit (which posed -- and was meant to pose -- an existential threat to the EU). So the reports of EU's death may be premature, as the cliché goes...

> This completely ignores both the deep euroscepticism felt by many people across the EU

Well, I haven't. On the contrary, I said that it is a very hard and incomplete project, and that it was considered impossible by a lot of people every step of the way. I also mentioned that it is among the younger generations that a European identity is growing. Not established, but growing.

> and also ignores that other countries have differing opinions to France and Germany too

Well, I ignored none of that. You just assumed it.

What I think is undeniable is that there are vested interests in the collapse of the EU. The EU is composed of many small countries, that could be much more easily pushed around if not acting as bloc. Naturally, those who would indeed like to push Europe around dislike the EU. With the stance of the current US administration and of the post-Brexit UK government, it just so happens that in the current year of 2020, a lot of people with such vested interests write in English.

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by nebolo on Thursday May 28, 2020 @02:57AM (#23334301)
Just yesterday the EU announced a massive stimulus, to be repaid over 30 years, perhaps partially by EU-wide taxes. What makes you way they are heading away from more integration?
Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by PedroBatista on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:03AM (#23335509)
Because the “integration” never existed and it failed the populations when they needed it more. Also, unrelated ex. Search what happened to peripheral economies when Germany wanted to sell Siemens trains to China.

Europe is not a country and the ones that insist it to be are high society politicians who like to pretend they are above the populace.

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by WJW on Thursday May 28, 2020 @06:29AM (#23335671)
It's certainly not a single country right now, but the direction over the last few decades has definitely been more towards a union than away from it.

Let's not forget that it took even the USA several centuries and a civil war to get to a mostly unified country. Even then there are vast differences in culture between states. If (say) California and Texas wouldn't have been part of the USA right now, I doubt they'd choose to merge into it.

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by PedroBatista on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:01AM (#23336714)
Europe "exists" for thousands of years, most modern country identities and cultures exist for very little less than that ( mine is almost 900 years ).

Compared to Europe, the US is as homogeneous as it can be. Of course it's heterogeneous but at a regional and sometimes city area level with different customs and traditions imported from other countries and "americanized"

The strength of Europe is their independent countries and diverse cultures and every time an enterprising young fella had grandiose ideas it always ends with an absolute bloodbath of apocalyptic proportions.

Generally speaking the ones that want a "fully integrated" Europe are:

1 - Politicians with a manager mentality who like to get frisky with concepts such as "economies of scale", "standardization", "efficiency", etc. Yet they don't know anything of what a society is.

2 - The usual crème-de-la-crème "citizens of the World" who in reality are just old-money rich ignorant "kids" who can't even fathom what an existence of a real "normal" person is.

3 - People from other parts of the World who think Europe is a country

4 - Competing superpowers who root for the destruction of Europe and know very well that their only hope is for it to implode.

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by philistine on Thursday May 28, 2020 @11:00AM (#23338072)
Wow. You sound like you don’t want people of different cultures, languages and ideas to get along.
Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by PedroBatista on Thursday May 28, 2020 @01:43PM (#23340142)
No, I don't sound like that because it's quite far from the truth, it's just that you have chosen to listen like that. :)
Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by dathinab on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @04:28PM (#23329510)
It's still a union of separate and culture/ political diverse countries.

As such it's basically guaranteed to keep country specific intelligence agencies.

A EU based agency would be interesting, but given how problematic it is to oversee it probably a nightmare to.

A stronger cooperation between EU agencies should be possible.

Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by deathgrips on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @07:42PM (#23331584)
Instead it should have one dysfunctional government :)
Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by fulafel on Thursday May 28, 2020 @01:59AM (#23333915)
This is events from 1970-1990.
Re:Maximator: European signals intelligence cooperation by rurban on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @02:17PM (#23327492)
That's a cheap excuse. The participating countries are known to have the best ties to the CIA. The others not so. They clearly want to avoid leaks, or punish them for their critical stance towards criminal practices.