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Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by dboreham on Saturday May 23, 2020 @11:21AM (#23283637)
Mask wearing perhaps?
Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by tzs on Saturday May 23, 2020 @03:19PM (#23285595)
That's likely a very big part. There was a recent study which found that if 80% of a population wore masks, that would cut the COVID cases to about 1/12th of what it would be in a population that took no protective measures.

If only 40% were to wear masks, they found almost no benefit.

By "masks" they don't just mean N95 masks. They include surgical masks, scarfs and bandanas used as masks, and other homemade or improvised masks.

Here's an article about that study [1].

For those who don't want to make their own or improvise, masks are becoming reasonably available. Newegg, for example, has several sellers which a search there on "masks" will find [2]. This includes some with stock in the US ready to ship, with delivery in a week or less. I just bought 50 disposable surgical-style masks for $30 from this listing [3], and they arrived in just over a week. At the time I bought they shipped from the seller but since then Newegg is handling shipping.

I picked that seller because they shipped from the US. A lot of sellers ship from China. Many of those do have reasonable shipping time, but I have no idea if the US Customs and Border Patrol is still seizing and redirecting PPE supplies that cross their paths. I figured a shipment that was entirely domestic was less likely to fall prey to government fuckwittery.

Tom's Guide has been maintaining a list of places with masks avaiable, which they update frequently [4]. That was were I learned that Newegg had masks in stock.

[1] https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/masks-covid-19-infec...

[2] https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=masks

[3] https://www.newegg.com/picotee-face-mask/p/0CE-02AC-00001

[4] https://www.tomsguide.com/news/where-to-buy-face-masks-and-c...

Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by fraculus on Saturday May 23, 2020 @08:08PM (#23287835)
I think first link really oversells the study it references, though.Key quotes, from the paper:

"The factor by which β was reduced was conservatively set to 2."

"Varying degrees of mask effectiveness are modelled by the mask transmission rate T and mask absorption rate A, which denote the proportion of viruses that are stopped by the mask during exhaling (transmission) versus inhaling (absorption), respectively. Weset T = 0.7 and A = 0.7 to model the use of inexpensive, widely available, and even nonmedical or homemade masks [...]"

So basically, they assume certain values for how effective masks are, and then simulates the dynamics of the epidemic. Nowhere do they try to justify the specific values chosen.

I expect that the conclusions cited (if only 40% wear masks, there is little benefit; if 80% wear masks, total cases go down by a factor 1/12) to be heavily dependent on those assumptions, and so I would be cautious to read too much into it.

Link to paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2004.13553.pdf

Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by blub on Saturday May 23, 2020 @04:45PM (#23286262)
What's the point? Western nations will never reach even 40% mask usage unless it's legally mandated or people start dying in droves.
Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by kitsunesoba on Saturday May 23, 2020 @11:25AM (#23283671)
Masks along with general higher levels of cleanliness, especially in public transportation. I don't know what the trains are like in other countries, but between Japan and the US there is absolutely no comparison. Japan's trains are pristine next to ours.
Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by user_50123890 on Saturday May 23, 2020 @11:29AM (#23283701)
Cleanliness does not really matter that much. There is little evidence for mass surface transmission.

This is a disease that is spread by breathing in air contaminated by a infected person coughing or talking.

Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by veidr on Saturday May 23, 2020 @12:35PM (#23284303)
Yeah, but one thing about the subways here in Japan that I think is weird: if I ride the subway to work (11-minute ride) most of the time literally nobody talks.

Nobody uses the phone (it's bad manners here), so like the only time anybody talks is like when a group of people gets on together (not usually the case when I commute).

I mainly bike so my subway experience might not be very typical, but it's one anecdata point.

Almost all my subway-riding experiences this year have been such that 95% of the other passengers are wearing masks, and nobody talks.

Can't be the main factor, but it might be one factor.

Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by flocial on Saturday May 23, 2020 @03:59PM (#23285862)
This. Talking on the phone on public transport is considered bad manners and practically never happens. Commute trains are dead silent with the exception of friends/family/coworkers traveling together. On top of all this everyone wears masks.
Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by xeromal on Saturday May 23, 2020 @11:27AM (#23283683)
I read that NY doesn't clean their subway nightly. Kind of insane considering how dirty public transit gets. At least run it through a gas chamber once a week to kill off everything.
Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by xeromal on Saturday May 23, 2020 @11:25AM (#23283669)
I considered that but other east Asian countries do the same thing, but aren't seeing the kind of results Japan is seeing.

Could be though. It's just interesting that they pulled it off without any lockdowns. It could be their isolation as an island as well.

Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by user_50123890 on Saturday May 23, 2020 @11:27AM (#23283682)
Other Asian countries are seeing the exact same results though? The virus is basically gone in all of them, the average person doesn't have to worry about it.

It seems only China is being overly cautious, implementing lockdown-type measures on a Russian border city with 130 confirmed cases

Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by alisonatwork on Saturday May 23, 2020 @11:38AM (#23283801)
In my city in Guangdong we still have lockdown and there hasn't been a significant number of cases in months. Pretty much all businesses have been open since March including bars, restaurants, offices etc but the "temporary" fences erected around neighborhoods are still in place, as are the checkpoints and curfews. Occasionally you will find a lax guard who lets everyone through with just a temperature check, but the stricter guards are still asking for proof of residence, not just from me (obvious foreigner) but also from locals.

To be honest, i suspect the movement restrictions are less about the virus now and more about controlling the "low end population" and other working class people. (Middle class people tend to live in gated communities anyway so the government didn't need to put up fences to control their movements.)

In short, China is definitely still being overly cautious, and it's not just up in the north.

Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by physicles on Saturday May 23, 2020 @06:10PM (#23287000)
Yeah life is nearly back to normal in Beijing and Shanghai. Restaurants are still below capacity, theaters and clubs aren’t open yet, and home visitors often still have to sign in at the gate, but that’s pretty much it. Local health authorities have even announced that it’s no longer necessary to wear a mask outside, but most people still do.
Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by georgeaway on Saturday May 23, 2020 @11:48AM (#23283887)
Definitely not back to normal in SEA.
Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by adventured on Saturday May 23, 2020 @12:31PM (#23284271)
I've yet to see a great explanation for why no Asian nations have been hit like some parts of Spain, Italy, France, Britain, US have been. Only a few parts of China appear to have been hit like that.

Countries in Asia not hammered by the virus: Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Japan, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Mongolia, Myanmar, Laos.

I'd add China to that list, however absolutely nothing about their reported figures can be trusted. All authoritarian nations are very aggressively lying across the board about their numbers (North Korea as another example). Russia is in a similar situation, they're undercounting cases and deaths to an absurd extreme (half the deaths of Canada, with 4x the cases; Britain with 10x the deaths of Russia, with fewer cases; yeah right).

It makes little sense to pretend it's masks making all the difference for all of them. Indonesia, the Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam, Laos, Myanmar, Mongolia are extremely poor and there's no evidence it's some kind of cultural hygiene action protecting them all (an often floated contributing theory for Japan or Singapore).

Cities in Vietnam and Indonesia didn't avoid an outbreak like Wuhan / Milan / Madrid / NYC thanks to instantly 100% masking up back in November - January.

Based on what we now know about SARS-CoV-2 there are only a few reasonable explanations (some of which blend, multiple factors).

Being on an island blatantly helps, just ask Hawaii and New Zealand. As with Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, Indonesia and in practical terms South Korea. Australia also largely fits that qualification (their major cities are population islands).

A lower susceptibility due to an unknown genetic factor. We do know that Vitamin D levels are very important, such that darker skin in cooler climates like NYC (cooler during flu season) can be a deadly combination as it pertains to getting a bad case of Covid. Someone on HN stated that 40% of deaths in Sweden are Somali Swedes despite their very small share of the population (5% of Covid cases are Somalis, and they're about 0.8% of the population). Severe Vitamin D deficiency has been repeatedly linked to bad outcomes. This is also an important factor with some other respiratory viruses.

There may be a lot of cases in some of these nations, however they're not producing large death rates due to health factors, specifically far lower rates of obesity, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, etc. If you're an average person and catch a mild case of Covid in Indonesia, you're not going to the hospital for it unless it progresses and you get very sick.

We do know there has been some lying about cases, however it doesn't appear that nations like Indonesia are covering up any mass number of deaths (I've yet to see any evidence supporting the notion that they're hiding eg tens of thousands of deaths).

Many of these nations have not tested at a high level, which may explain some of the lower case rates, however it doesn't explain the lack of large death numbers. Deaths have tended to prompt nations to get aggressive on higher rates of testing, so unless you're seeing a lot of deaths, a poorer nation may choose to avoid the cost of high rates of testing.

There's no question that masking up helps to a huge degree. So to the extent that nations have done that, it has helped them imo (I think the evidence is overwhelming at this point). Japan and South Korea to name two, have clearly seen the benefit from that.

And last but not least, climate. It's likely that the hotter, poorer nations in Asia have had some protection from the virus for the same reason cities in Texas, California and Florida have done so much better than eg Chicago, Boston, Detroit, NYC, Philly, Wuhan, Milan, Madrid, etc. We know the virus, as with influenza and SARS, does not do as well against high temperatures and high humidity. It doesn't stop the virus, it slows it down versus what would otherwise occur. Also, being in a very cold climate (Canada, Finland) would have been a benefit until warmer weather hit (we saw that in Moscow), as it reduces various social activity naturally.

If you were to bundle together: fewer comorbidities, climate, island and masks, you'd have just about an ideal mix of protections (a culture that will consistently respect social distancing would obviously help also).

Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by SyneRyder on Saturday May 23, 2020 @04:50PM (#23286304)
>I've yet to see a great explanation for why no Asian nations have been hit...

You've missed Singapore there, which has been hit extremely badly on a per-capita basis. For number of confirmed cases, they're 8th in the world. They're not getting mentioned as often because their very good healthcare means they have few deaths - less than 1%, unlike Sweden [1] where currently 45% of people who catch the virus die from it.

[1] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by manfredo on Sunday May 24, 2020 @01:04AM (#23289254)
Your link says Sweden has 33,188 cases and 3,992 deaths. Furthermore, it looks like this is out of confirmed cases of people checked into hospitals, thus ignoring the overwhelming majority of asymptomatic cases, and symptomatic but non-serious cases that don't result in hospital stays.

To put this in perspective, this is 10x higher than the initial estimate of 1-3% death rate, and 0.4 to 0.8% fatality rate after random testing became more prevalent.

Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by SyneRyder on Sunday May 24, 2020 @02:36AM (#23289633)
You might have missed further down the page: Sweden only has 8,963 closed cases, of which only 4,971 (55%) recovered. 3,992 (45%) have died. The rest of the 33,188 cases have still not yet recovered from the virus.

But you're right that even if you take the 3,992 deaths out of 33,188 confirmed COVID-19 cases in Sweden, their 10% death rate is still almost 10x higher when compared to Australia (1.5%) and much more compared to Singapore (0.08%).

Re:Did Japan Just Beat the Virus Without Lockdowns or Mass T... by cczizou on Saturday May 23, 2020 @11:23AM (#23283651)
+1