News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by whateveracct on Thursday May 21, 2020 @02:03PM (#23262256)
As an employee, it doesn't matter if it's more productive. You greatly increase your pay per hour of work given that you don't have to commute and you definitely don't spend 8 hrs of work consumed by work like you are forced to when in an office.

Productivity as an employee is about meeting a bar (that you partially define along with your employer). Caring about maximizing productivity is the goal of your employer. But you have some leverage in this job market so it's not like they can squeeze you dry. Remote only helps the employee side of that adversarial relationship.

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by gfxgirl on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:38AM (#23268690)
I absolutely don't care about productivity. I care about

> Also, it's nice seeing everybody at work, getting lunch, having a coffee break with people, whiteboarding, etc. There is a huge social aspect that is lost with WFH that zoom can't replace. Imo that reduction in socializing has reduced my work performance because I've noticed I just sprint ahead for 4+ hours straight and burn out really hard at the end of the day.

I like showing up at work to work together with my co-workers. If you don't then maybe you should get a new job where you like the people you work with.

Am I really not looking forward to the new remote work future. Maybe someone will come up with a way to restore the socializing I got from work. I don't just want to hang out with friends. I want to work together with people on a common goal, and by "work together" I mean I want to do this in the same space. Just like eating lunch on zoom or going to a virtual bar via facetime is not as good as actually siting at the same table with friends neither is remote work as fulfilling "for me" as actually being in the same space as my co-workers. But then again I like my co-workers and I like the things we are building together.

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by kyawzazaw on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:52AM (#23268745)
Is a local co working space out of the option? Just genuinely curious. Of course, when the pandemic is over.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by prawn on Monday May 25, 2020 @02:53AM (#23298681)
I think this will be increasingly popular. You can minimise your commute while retaining the social aspect. I've worked out of shared offices for 20 years and enjoy it.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by bhupy on Thursday May 21, 2020 @03:50PM (#23264085)
> You greatly increase your pay per hour of work

I don't think this is guaranteed to happen. Another possible outcome is that tech salaries will pin to the lowest common denominator, such that employers will "outsource" much of their engineering work to engineers that live in low cost-of-living markets.

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by Consultant32452 on Thursday May 21, 2020 @05:34PM (#23265686)
As someone whose friends are mostly blue collar workers who were scolded for being concerned that "poor people from other places will steal our jobs", I'm finding all of these posts to be delightful.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by dodobirdlord on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:44AM (#23268713)
It's pretty funny. Though it's misguided for the same reason. Making high-productivity jobs available to more people is good. In 2015 it was estimated that US GDP is 9.5% lower than it could be as a result of housing shortages in just San Francisco, New York, and San Jose.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w21154

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by balfirevic on Thursday May 21, 2020 @04:10PM (#23264382)
Sounds pretty good for those engineers.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by fapjacks on Thursday May 21, 2020 @11:47PM (#23268467)
Yeah, it's great news for engineers living in places where people don't pay more than a dollar per day for food. "Eat the rich" is one of most unintentionally-ironic phrases ever muttered.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by rantwasp on Thursday May 21, 2020 @02:38PM (#23262901)
2 things: we’re going to see pay cuts (because convenience and it’s easier for the drones) and your life quality is also going to be impacted (work/personal life separation? bye bye and good luck)
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by ativzzz on Thursday May 21, 2020 @04:12PM (#23264411)
The companies that abuse work/life separation have been doing so without remote work and will do so regardless of the situation. Generally, these companies tend to pay more because if they didn't, nobody would do them.

So just as always, you have a choice, what's worth more to you? Money, or free time? And pick your job accordingly.

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by sidlls on Thursday May 21, 2020 @06:46PM (#23266452)
That isn’t strictly true and depends highly on the applicable labor market. For example, the worst paid software job I ever had was for a defense contractor that demanded 10 hour workdays 7 days a week during “crunch time” to meet deliverables and overtime frequently the rest of the year.

They paid poorly precisely because of the relative lack of opportunity for software in the region at the time. That meant anyone who’s livelihood was in software had little recourse other than to move. That was the option I took, but others can’t for a number of reasons.

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by ativzzz on Thursday May 21, 2020 @08:23PM (#23267325)
Well now with remote work those people actually have job choices.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by kaishiro on Thursday May 21, 2020 @06:33PM (#23266309)
How would this be any different than now? Companies that have a culture of disrespect towards their employee's time by expecting responses to after hours emails and calls will continue to do so, as they always have. The onus is on the individual to determine if they're going to put up with that or not.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by rantwasp on Thursday May 21, 2020 @07:32PM (#23266896)
it’s always a push and pull kind-of thing. if you answer your email after hours you will receive emails after hours. if you work on your free time more work is going to show up on your plate. as with everything in life having boundaries is a must. if your boss makes you work nights or weekends make sure this is explicitly done (ie have them ask you formally) and ask for a raise to compensate for your time. if they don’t back off find another job.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by t-writescode on Thursday May 21, 2020 @10:49PM (#23268240)
Work-life balance is a necessary thing that each person has to work on for themselves. Learning to say 'no' while delivering on the things you're asked, and delivering well, is one of the most important things an employee can do to gain respect and to give the company boundaries.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by bobmalone123 on Thursday May 21, 2020 @02:29PM (#23262736)
Why do you see the employer/employee relationship as adversarial? Perhaps you are working in the wrong company. You need employers as much as they need employees. It’s a myopic view.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by Frost1x on Thursday May 21, 2020 @02:40PM (#23262934)
An employee/employer relation is mutually beneficial but that doesn't stop conflict. The employer is still going to try and optimize to get more out of that relationship than it puts in. The employee should also do the same.

Just because you're working together in a circumstance that benefits the two parties doesn't mean each party is not also working against each other to some degree to better optimize their self-interests.

An employer may need an employee to create something and by creating and selling that thing, an employer and employee may both get a cut and benefit. None of that prevents the employer or employee from attempting to get a larger cut or do less work (invest less time) to receive their cut. Extremes to either side cause the relationship to collapse but there's definitely wiggle room in the margins beyond a 50/50 split.

I've yet to meet a single employer that doesn't try to optimize on labor costs in that relationship through some component or another, directly or indirectly.

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by ryanwaggoner on Thursday May 21, 2020 @07:57PM (#23267087)
This is a pretty fascinating perspective to me, one I had never considered. I had always thought of the employee who is paid more than the value they provide as being lazy and a leech. But that’s exactly what the corporation is doing: trying to make a profit by paying for less value than they capture from their employees.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by gfxgirl on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:49AM (#23268733)
I don't see my employer as paying less than the value they get from me. I see my employer as accepting a risk I'm unwilling to accept. If I go do things on my own I have so many things I have to deal with. Assuming you start a business then insurance, taxes, deductions, payroll (gotta pay yourself from your company) plus I have to market my skills, network, find customers, negotiate contracts, and always worry if I don't I'll go hungry or miss rent. Or, I can just show up at some other company as an employee and in exchange for getting less than the full amount they take care of all of that and all the risk.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by Frost1x on Friday May 22, 2020 @08:18AM (#23271290)
>I see my employer as accepting a risk I'm unwilling to accept.

Which is also true. At the same time, risk is highly relative which is why this situation is feasible at all. What's risky for you to do as an individual is not of the same order of magnitude of relative risk when you consider scaling of available resources.

Example, Alphabet, Amazon, or Company Y decide to invest $1 million in a new SaaS 'X' effort with some monthly fee in an attempt to build a successful product/service. These companies have arrays of pre-existing successful products/services they've built (typically diversified) that generate stable profits. Relative to that sort of expected profit, SaaS 'X' is a drop in the bucket. If 'X' fails, it's the same absolute monetary loss ($1 million) but the relative risk of losing $1 million isn't significant to any of these businesses, it's small relative to their total resource pool of disposable assets. Loss recovery will also take significantly less time.

On the other hand, if I as an individual go through the effort to form an LLC, develop SaaS 'X' myself and fail, $1 million is nothing to scoff at. Even if you're in the higher income scales of our industry and making $300-500k+/yr for labor, you're looking at ~3-4 years or so of potential losses and values that are probably near or a bit more than your total personal assets, at the very least I'd say 10%. If you start an LLC and get a loan or have some investor drop money on you, $1 million is still likely going to be a lot relative to your loan. It's highly likely that if 'X' fails your business will fail. There's high relative risk here (there are some mitigations strategies from your personal assets but it's still significant). You're probably going to face noticeable financial hardship or have to revert back to the labor market due to business small failure rates.

Risk is mitigated through scale, snowballed growth, and diversification (amongst other strategies) in our economic system through initial successes that often occur either through true innovation/market creation/penetration and/or sheer luck.

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by klodolph on Thursday May 21, 2020 @02:35PM (#23262844)
I think you may be reading something into the term “adversarial” that isn’t there. A relationship can be both adversarial and cooperative at the same time, that is just the nature of human behavior.

My personal take on things is that if you don’t recognize the adversarial part of the employer/employee relationship, then you will suffer for it. It’s more healthy to recognize where parties have competing interests, and it’s unhealthy to ignore them.

I’d also say that the people who can ignore the adversarial aspects of employment can only do so because of a fair bit of privilege. For example, people will throw around the saying here that “HR is an advocate for the company, not the employee,” but many of us will never really have to deal with HR in a way where it really matters.

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by elliekelly on Thursday May 21, 2020 @02:59PM (#23263301)
> You need employers as much as they need employees.

I'm not sure I'd agree. When a company loses an employee it's an inconvenience but when an employee loses their job it's often devastating.

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by omgwtfbyobbq on Thursday May 21, 2020 @02:35PM (#23262852)
It is in some cases and isn't in others. I wouldn't call it myopic though. Different people have different experiences.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by whateveracct on Thursday May 21, 2020 @02:44PM (#23263001)
It's not zero-sum, but we also aren't perfectly aligned. There's room to make decisions that benefit you and don't benefit your employer.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by vkou on Thursday May 21, 2020 @05:49PM (#23265856)
If they aren't adversarial, why do so many successful employers treat them as such?

The market rewards them for this. Is the market wrong, or your thesis?

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by arcticbull on Thursday May 21, 2020 @02:35PM (#23262846)
Because you can't say "no, I don't think so" if they suggest you not show up at work on Monday?

Your employer needs employees, not specific employees.

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by tomnipotent on Thursday May 21, 2020 @02:39PM (#23262912)
More specifically, it needs labor and most employers could care less where it comes from.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by 121789 on Thursday May 21, 2020 @02:39PM (#23262911)
Maximizing productivity can be a shared goal of employer/employees if the employer pays fairly for higher performance (which many tech companies do). At that point it becomes a tradeoff for the employee on cost of going to the office (commute, wasted time) vs. cost of remote (potentially lower chances of future higher pay). That tradeoff is probably worth it for some people.

And this change isn't going to improve employee leverage, it's going to decrease it substantially when all companies develop processes to have a significantly higher pool of candidates to hire from. Long-term employees will look at having a company-provided office with a good work environment as a luxury.

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by kortilla on Thursday May 21, 2020 @02:54PM (#23263217)
> Productivity as an employee is about meeting a bar

This is the path to mediocrity and leaving tons of money on the table in much of the tech industry.

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by whateveracct on Thursday May 21, 2020 @03:22PM (#23263672)
Not if I use the time gained productively for your own purposes & goals that your employer cannot satisfy. This can involve more income, more life satisfaction, etc.

I've been able to be well above mediocre in west coast tech for years now with this strategy /shrug For FAANG, startups, and other BigCos.

FYI, the bar can be the bar needed to get a promotion & bump your pay grade. It can also be to keep your current job & stay the course. And it can change over time strategically.

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by kortilla on Sunday May 31, 2020 @03:07PM (#23371789)
Let me elaborate a bit. If you are a top performer at tech companies with an obvious outsized impact, it’s easy to make 4x your original comp in spot bonuses, additional RSU grants, etc.

Unless your side hustle brings in $300k+ a year, you’re better off becoming critical at the main job because it becomes very lucrative.

Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by zip1234 on Thursday May 21, 2020 @09:17PM (#23267722)
Remote definitely does not help only the employee side. Because of remote I have hired people that I would not be able to hire. You vastly increase the talent pool when you cast the net wider.
Re:Facebook to shift permanently toward more remote work aft... by whateveracct on Thursday May 21, 2020 @09:20PM (#23267744)
It's a win-win! Efficiency for all.