News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Sell Yourself, Sell Your Work by WJW on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @05:00PM (#23251747)
Some types of selling are like that, but it would be incorrect to say that all types of selling are like that or that some salesmen don't consistently rely on straight up lying. Some bad apples spoil the basket.
Re:Sell Yourself, Sell Your Work by WalterBright on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @05:38PM (#23252128)
> it would be incorrect to say that all types of selling are like that

I didn't say that.

I did say it was counterproductive. Making a career out of selling means you're going to need repeat customers, and customers don't return when they realize they were hoodwinked.

People who sell me what I want make a lot of money off of me because I keep coming back for more.

Re:Sell Yourself, Sell Your Work by willis936 on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @07:20PM (#23253175)
How many cars do people buy in a life? How many houses?

Sales has earned a slimy reputation. Slapping the word in front of hard, earnest work to brand it as something better than it is, is lying.

Clear communication has nothing to do with sales because sales has nothing to do with anything other than making a sale. Real problems and real solutions are motivated by more complex worldviews than “profit good”.

Re:Sell Yourself, Sell Your Work by WalterBright on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @07:36PM (#23253296)
> Clear communication has nothing to do with sales

It certainly does. It produces the best kind of sales - transactions that work well for buyer and seller.

> cars

I asked the prof who taught my accounting class about his career in used car sales. He said you could tell a good dealer from bad by how long he'd been in business. A good lot will last more than 5 years, because by then he'll be running on repeat business rather than running out of suckers in the community.

> houses

I've moved around Seattle a bit. I only deal with one agent now, because she's honest and reliable, and I recommend her to anyone who asks. Real estate agents rely heavily on recommendations from satisfied customers.

> Real problems and real solutions are motivated by more complex worldviews than “profit good”.

I'm pointing out that the path to great profits is not by lying - it's by building a track record of satisfied customers. And that's how the best salesmen operate.

Consider insurance salesmen. I gave all my insurance business to one Charles Kern, who was very old school in that he always personally went way out of his way to take good care of all my insurance needs, including claims. His prices were higher, but were damn well worth it. I was very sad when he passed away, and have not found another agent since who was like him, and I'm correspondingly less loyal to them.

I have a similar relationship with my business accountant, who I've been using for 35 years. He's expensive, but he's earned my loyalty and I don't hesitate to recommend him to others. (And I started doing business with him from a recommendation by a friend of mine.)

And that's darn good salesmanship.

Re:Sell Yourself, Sell Your Work by TeMPOraL on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @07:40PM (#23253324)
Or, how many telecoms or ISPs you have to choose from in your area? How many banks? Very few, and at least where I live, every one has sketchy people doing sales (particularly over the phone). You can only jump around so much, I bet it averages out for everyone - for each customer telecom A loses because of sketchy sales tactics, it gains a different one that run away from the sketchy sales tactics of telecom B. Meanwhile, they keep pushing win-lose deals on people and rake in the profits.

Here's an incomplete list where I've seen dishonest sales, and expect that the entire market category is thoroughly corrputed by such:

- Cases where you buy something very rarely (like cars or houses).

- Cases where there isn't much choice in the first place (banks, telecoms, ISPs, but also SaaS products).

- Cases where there is a steady flow of new customers, and repeat ones are unlikely (lots of e-commerce, in particular on big e-commerce platforms).

Re:Sell Yourself, Sell Your Work by watwut on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @05:34PM (#23252070)
Most of sales are like that. The very very small minority is about actually helping people. Then, a lot of people are about manipulating and stretching truth just slightly beyond breaking point. The rest straight lies.
Re:Sell Yourself, Sell Your Work by WalterBright on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @05:40PM (#23252154)
Think about the businesses you repeatedly buy from. Are they cheating you?
Re:Sell Yourself, Sell Your Work by karatestomp on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @07:21PM (#23253189)
Almost nothing I repeat-buy is sold to me by a salesperson. Is there marketing? Sure. Salesperson? No. In fact having a salesperson involved almost always means it’s something unwanted or unpleasant (door-to-door window salesmen, cars) and I’m inclined to avoid them and shop on my own if it’s an option—I figure if a place is paying salesmen, I’m paying those salesmen if I buy from them, and I’d rather keep that money, and besides I don’t want to spend my time playing Which Pop-Sales Book Did You Read Last with Jim and his “salesman of the month, April 2013” plaque and mass-produced golf art.

B2B sales are different but incentives there aren’t the same as for individuals—I might take more sales pitches in private life if someone was paying me to do it, it wasn’t my money on the line, and so on.

Re:Sell Yourself, Sell Your Work by WalterBright on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @07:38PM (#23253314)
The company is still doing selling to you.
Re:Sell Yourself, Sell Your Work by karatestomp on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @07:53PM (#23253414)
Yeah, ads, shelf placement. Marketing. No interaction with a salesperson. I take them as a really strong signal to walk away from whatever they’re selling. Ditto any direct communication that appears personalized. Cold calls. Hell even unexpected calls from my bank trying to sell me something or “check in”. No, no, no if you’re talking to me you want something and there’s nothing I want to give you so, bye, and even if I think no maybe I do want that I’ll just hang up faster because you’re (maybe) a pro so I can’t trust any of this—if I didn’t initiate the communication, I don’t need it, so, bye.

Actually, I take that back: recruiters sell to me quite a bit. Though they’re trying to convince someone else to give us both money, not me to give them money, so that’s a bit different in that I’m not purchasing anything they’re “selling”.

Re:Sell Yourself, Sell Your Work by TeMPOraL on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @07:46PM (#23253368)
That can be surprising if you dig into it.

Before I moved to a smaller town, there was a grocery store I bought regularly from due to optimal location and relatively middle-level prices. I was pretty sociable back then, and befriended some employees. This eventually led to them warning me about buying meat on certain days - turns out, they were forced to wash stale meat with detergent to erase the bad smell, and sell it as fresh. I recently confirmed it with one of the ex-employees, turns out their manager actually opposed that, but this was forced by the higher ups in the management of the whole shop chain.

That, and bunch of other stories (some second-hand, some first-hand), essentially ruined my trust in regular small business.

Re:Sell Yourself, Sell Your Work by WalterBright on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @07:51PM (#23253406)
Did you continue to buy from them? I doubt it. Do you recommend them to others? I doubt that. Such practices tend to not work out well in the long term.

I've been investing in stocks ever since my first job. I've done reasonably well, and I focus on companies that focus on making their customers happy - and they do better than average long term. That's great salesmanship.

Re:Sell Yourself, Sell Your Work by TeMPOraL on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @08:02PM (#23253468)
> Did you continue to buy from them? I doubt it.

Only bread, cheese and processed products in original packaging, so I guess this proves your point. But they are doing fine to this day, because there's only so many people you could tell (for various personal reasons I didn't want to pursue anything serious, like ratting them out to safety inspectors and hoping they didn't bribe the local inspector, like a certain bookstore I know of... but that's another story), and people tend to stick to their local grocery stores anyway (price and location sensitivity).

For what it's worth, despite that I'm now distrusting businesses by default, I try to compensate for that; if there's a store or service provider that I feel treats me fairly, and I don't see any obvious signs of deception in their overall business practices, I tend to stick to them despite cheaper options available. I feel fair business should be rewarded, and I do my best to put my money where my mouth is in this area.