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Re:Dark Patterns: Past, Present, and Future by kerkeslager on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @04:01PM (#23251102)
Honestly, this doesn't even point out some of the worst dark patterns. In the US, it's become ubiquitous to no longer even ask to send you spam: if I understand correctly, the legal justification is that they put the email consent in the Terms of Use (which are "conveniently" "consented to" by a non-optional, pre-checked checkbox).
Re:Dark Patterns: Past, Present, and Future by kaoD on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @05:26PM (#23251991)
When I get subscribed to any mailing list I didn't explicitly opt-in to I just mark them as spam (which it is) on GMail and move on.

Enough of us doing this and I guess they'll get the message.

Re:Dark Patterns: Past, Present, and Future by axismundi on Thursday May 21, 2020 @05:26AM (#23256420)
I don't think this is a good idea, for two reasons:

They push the responsibility of getting rid of unwanted stuff in our mailboxes to us. It's not a single company doing this, but most of them. That's sometimes dozens of emails a week! We shouldn't waste our time reading, parsing and fighting the unsubscribe forms - many times fortified with cookie-consent walls!

The average internet user will not do that anyway, so the spammers rely on user's laziness and dulled senses, just like ad blindness, so they slowly start to accept this sick situation as the new normal. For us it becomes the new normal. For our children - the only normal.

Re:Dark Patterns: Past, Present, and Future by kerkeslager on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @07:32PM (#23253271)
That doesn't work and it really can't work. If you order from foo.com, you want to receive the receipt, but you don't want to receive "Top ten deals of the summer from foo.com". But these come from the same email address, from the same server, etc. Maybe AI filtering will get good enough to deal with this stuff reliably in the future, but right now, it seems like we're stuck with it.

The reality here is that the free market rewards this awful behavior, so it won't be solved until regulation is applied.

Re:Dark Patterns: Past, Present, and Future by Silhouette on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @08:27PM (#23253618)
It's particularly annoying because the spammers are not only causing trouble in their own right but also motivating an overreaction from major mail services in response.

From the sending side, I have one business right now where our outgoing emails are apparently being blocked or even silently dropped by at least three ISPs spread across two different continents. We have never sent anything even remotely spammy in our entire trading history. We have all the usual shouldn't-be-needed-but-are extras like SPF properly configured. The sending mail server hasn't found its way onto any of the big blacklists as far as we can tell. And the mails being blocked are actually quite important things like password reset requests, emails with copies of documentation that we are legally required to send attached, or even replies to customers contacting us to ask where their password reset emails are when they've been requesting them!

From the receiving side, I'm fed up with helping friends and family who are trying to work out why they aren't getting important messages, and with the ISPs who have screwed up their mail configuration or deliberately set up overly aggressive anti-spam policies but then have front-line support drones who just intone that you should check your junk mail folder as an instinctive reaction to any complaint about missing mail.

I think that with email now effectively being both the effective root password to so many online accounts and the primary means of communication between a lot of people and organisations with genuine reasons to contact them, the medium of email needs the same kinds of legal safeguards that other essential means of communications like postal mail have enjoyed for a long time. I don't think it should be left to big name mail services or some random ISP to decide whether or not their users are going to receive legitimate emails any more. Blocking false positives is far more damaging than missing false negatives when it comes to spam, and the situation is out of control. It's time to regulate.

Re:Dark Patterns: Past, Present, and Future by coronadisaster on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @07:02PM (#23253028)
Can't you pay Google to let your spam/ads through?
Re:Dark Patterns: Past, Present, and Future by sethammons on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @07:28PM (#23253241)
I would doubt this. I work for a large email service provider and we do lots of work to fight spam on our system. We also do lots of work with the Gmail folks (at least, we have in the past -- pretty sure we were the first ESP to use delivery feedback loops with them). We were never offered a "pay to play" thing. Instead, it was just them doing their best to fight spam and us doing our best to fight spam.
Re:Dark Patterns: Past, Present, and Future by dntbnmpls on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @08:51PM (#23253753)
Or even worse, financial companies can reset your "opt-out" of data sharing/selling/etc by sending you a new agreement/change of terms/etc. Every time you get a ream of paper from your credit card company, there is a single sheet of paper with information to opt-out of data sharing/selling/etc. You have to mail that form or call the number to opt-out every single time they send you that massive ream of paper. And since it is opt-out rather than opt-in, if you don't explicitly opt-out within 30 days or so, you are automatically enrolled in their data collection program.
Re:Dark Patterns: Past, Present, and Future by eggsnbacon1 on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @04:46PM (#23251580)
the subscriber stuff is the worst. I unsubscribe from a marketing list and a month later the emails are back under a different name. They just create a new marketing category so you have to unsubscribe again
Re:Dark Patterns: Past, Present, and Future by pwdisswordfish2 on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @09:34PM (#23254013)
If you reply in order to "unsubscribe" doesn't this provide the spammer with "email validation", i.e., they know it is a working address and someone is reading the mail sent to it.
Re:Dark Patterns: Past, Present, and Future by kerkeslager on Thursday May 21, 2020 @09:20AM (#23257980)
Well, there are two categories of spam worth talking about:

1. Spam from people who are just brute-forcing the space of possible email addresses. In this case, yes, clicking unsubscribe gives them information. But I will say, this spam is generally pretty well taken care of by existing spam filters, so personally I'm not concerned about this.

2. Spam from people who got your email address via some interaction. Maybe you bought something from them, for example. This sort of spam, they already have your email address and know it works. The upside here is that if you've made a purchase from them, it's much harder for them to avoid regulation due to the money trail, so if you unsubscribe, they have to actually unsubscribe you. There are loopholes in regulation, however.

Re:Dark Patterns: Past, Present, and Future by pwdisswordfish2 on Thursday May 21, 2020 @09:19PM (#23267738)
What happens when a user creates an email address just for a single purpose, e.g., making a single purchase, then she never uses the email address again?

How strong is the assumption that all users have only one email address and will keep that address long-term? I remember hearing that one could keep getting AWS free trials simply by signing up with a new email address.

Re:Dark Patterns: Past, Present, and Future by m463 on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @10:06PM (#23254178)
A lot (the majority?) of email clients load remote images by default, so just viewing the email may provide validation.

In apple mail, even if you turn it off it will happily load the remote images if you try to forward the email.

I found this particularly troublesome when I wanted to forward a phishing attempt to IT, and Little Snitch showed mail trying to connect to the phishing site.

(this was not on catalina, maybe it is fixed?)

Re:Dark Patterns: Past, Present, and Future by NegativeLatency on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @05:04PM (#23251796)
linkedin just reset all my unsubscribed preferences this morning