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Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by Lazare on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @02:23AM (#23231824)
Some good points, although I'd toss another thought into the mix. The confinements and shutdowns and shelter in place orders also cost lives.

We know that recessions cost lives. One study (published in The Lancet, so worth taking a second look at) suggested 500k excess cancer deaths from the global financial crisis[1], and another study (published in the BMJ) suggested that excess suicides in 2009 alone across the US and 53 other countries totalled some 5k[2]. I don't know of a single comprehensive effort, but we know recessions reduce the resources available at the margins for food, medicine and shelter, and increase the suicide rate. The net effect for something like the GFC seems likely to be on the order of tens of thousands of deaths (and perhaps significantly higher), and the recession caused in part by Covid-19 and in part by our reaction to Covid-19 seems to be within an order of magnitude of the GFC.

Thus, it seems fairly obvious that at least some responses to Covid-19 would cost more lives than they saved. If you're evaluating a measure that, let's say, would save X lives from Covid-19, but would cause the resulting recession to go from, Y% as bad as the GFC to Z% as bad as the GFC, there are absolutely values for X, Y and Z which would make the measure net negative on lives.

I'd be happier if that tradeoff got acknowledged a bit more often, even in a perfunctory "well, we're clearly MILES away from the break even point, so let's ignore it" sort of way. If you pretend that tradeoffs don't exist, you're unlikely to reach an optimal decision.

[1]: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/25/financial-crisis...

[2]: https://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f5239

Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by throwaway_pdp09 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @04:35AM (#23232661)
> but we know recessions reduce the resources available at the margins for food, medicine and shelter, and increase the suicide rate

OK, agreed, because of hardship.

But a lot of that hardship is due to enormous wealth inequality (I'm assuming you're a US person). How about you don't have titanic inequalities instead? Would that work?

Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by pmiller2 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @05:00AM (#23232811)
It would. The fact that a science-based public health response to a public health crisis is causing extreme economic hardship for so many people right now indicates that our economic system is broken.

The science behind reducing transmission of the virus is sound. What's going to get people killed in the near term is twofold: people undermining or protesting the quarantine orders; and people who need to go to work in order to support their families and not get evicted, who end up contracting the virus and either dying or spreading it to others. The former is either due to some kind of fucked up value system that interprets a temporary public health quarantine as some kind of intolerable infringement of rights. The latter is because the American form of capitalism leaves so many people so far behind that they can never get ahead.

Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by mirimir on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @06:01AM (#23233141)
Haven't they also cost lives from hindered access to medical care for stuff unrelated to Covid-19?
Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by drapred7 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @03:11AM (#23232151)
If the movement restrictions cost lives, why are total fatalities down? (even including SARS deaths)
Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by elcomet on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @03:48AM (#23232359)
Also, movement restrictions cause deaths in longer terms than the virus.
Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by drapred7 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:06AM (#23235637)
How?
Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by elcomet on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @04:32PM (#23251430)
Movement restrictions causes financial difficulties for companies, which cause job losses, which can cause depression. All this can take time.
Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by manigandham on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @04:09AM (#23232496)
These deaths aren't as acute. Deaths from economic depression will take longer to manifest than a sudden illness.
Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by Gibbon1 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @05:21AM (#23232916)
That sounds like a call for a coherent policy rather than the do nothing that's being proposed here.
Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by rhn_mk1 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @03:36AM (#23232265)
Because total = increase - decrease.

If the decrease is bigger than the increase, you will see the total drop.

Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by TJSomething on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @04:10AM (#23232499)
The primary risk factors of economic recessions take years. Most cancers take years to kill people. The effect of unemployment on suicide peaks at around 2.5 years of unemployment [0]. I think that we're going to have an economic downturn with repercussions that will last long after a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine exists. I also think the ends currently justify the means, but that's just a gut feeling I've got.

[0] Milner, Allison et al. “Long-term unemployment and suicide: a systematic review and meta-analysis.” PloS one vol. 8,1 (2013): e51333. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0051333

Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by Lazare on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @04:15AM (#23232537)
They undoubtedly do cost lives but:

1) You're looking at net lives, and there's no particular reason to think we're net negative yet. Let's imagine a brief lockdown to avoid overwhelming the emergency rooms with people needing ventilators is very net positive. And let's imagine crippling the economy by fully locking down everything until a vaccine passes clinical trials in 18 months is very net negative. Even if you accept these as true, we might have weeks to go until the crossover point arrives...or we might have already passed it.

2) Which brings us to the next point - even if we're already in net negative territory, deaths from Covid-19 are (hopefully) front loaded; they're happening now. Deaths three years from now because the long term economic growth rate is 0.2% lower than it otherwise would have been are still in the future. I linked to some studies suggesting the GFC cost a fair chunk of lives in the end, but you wouldn't have been able to detect any of that the week after Lehman failed; the fallout had yet to land.

And finally:

3) Coming back to the point in the linked article, there's more to life than strict maximising quality-adjusted life years. There's a lot of ways you could, in principle, save lives via a stroke of a pen. Boxing, white water rafting, surfing, diving, and mountain climbing are all shockingly dangerous sports. We could ban them! It'd straight up save lives. Should we? I, for one, would strongly argue no. But that cuts both ways. Even if we had inarguably correct data showing continuing the lockdowns was starting to cost lives, that's the starting point for the debate, not the conclusion. We don't (and shouldn't) just do the things that would save the most lives.

Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by pmiller2 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @05:05AM (#23232843)
Regarding point 3, I think your examples, being individual sports that people choose to participate in, are kind of straw men. For one, relatively few people die doing them. For another, as I mentioned, they're activities that people participate in, knowing that there are some serious risks.

A better example would be "let's end all farm subsidies for sugar and tobacco." You could arguably include corn here, as well. Go a little further, and you can start talking about national sugar and tobacco taxes. All these measures simply increase the price of sugar and tobacco, which has been proven to reduce consumption, and would certainly have the effect of reducing obesity and cancer.

I find it a lot harder to argue against those things than to say we should ban surfing, boxing, or rafting, because a few people get injured or die every year doing them.

Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by Lazare on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @07:43AM (#23233750)
My point isn't that they're equivalent (they're not), but that the analysis never stops at "this will save lives, so we should do it". There's always more layers, such as here your very valid analysis of whether people are choosing to participate.
Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by pmiller2 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @05:54PM (#23240748)
No, but you'd get the point across better by using a less ridiculous example -- that's my point. Nobody's ever going to support a ban on surfing because it's just ludicrous on its face. Ending tobacco and sugar subsidies is something that could get real consideration today.
Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by tonyedgecombe on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @05:28AM (#23232956)
The confinements and shutdowns and shelter in place orders also cost lives.

You have to remember the economic slowdowns started before the lockdowns were in place. Even without lockdown we were in for a lot of economic pain.

Re:Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life by js8 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @05:33AM (#23232988)
> We know that recessions cost lives.

Interesting, I read a different view: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/28/a-rece...

I am not sure how to reconcile this.