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Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by flatline on Saturday May 16, 2020 @10:35AM (#23203692)
It is currently the leasing cause of death in the US, I feel like there is legitimate reason for concern, if not alarm. No, it’s not going to kill 5% of the population, especially not if hospitals remain at or below capacity. But give it time and people will become less cautious Regardless of government orders, especially months from now when cold and flu season start back up. So things are mostly still “fine”, despite 80k+ deaths, but that is not guaranteed to hold.
Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by umanwizard on Saturday May 16, 2020 @10:39AM (#23203725)
I never said COVID-19 is not serious, so I’m not sure what this has to do with my comment.

I think it’s a cause for concern, yes — and the current reaction is miles beyond what can reasonably be described as “concern”.

I think heart disease — the #2 cause of death in the US — is serious too, but I still don’t think sensationalism and panic about it is helpful.

Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by kweinber on Saturday May 16, 2020 @11:02AM (#23203923)
Heart disease is the leading cause of death because heart stoppage is the definition of death and the “default” value when the actual cause of death is unknown.

Marking cardiac arrest as cause of death is like filling in the blank with “died by not living anymore”.

Therefore it is not a meaningful stat to say the heart disease is the #1 or #2 cause of death. I cringe when that is used by fitness gurus to justify their videos or when scientific discussions are derailed by making the comparison.

Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by umanwizard on Saturday May 16, 2020 @11:09AM (#23203988)
Sure. Replace that with the third, fourth, or fifth cause of death, and my point is the same.
Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by kweinber on Saturday May 16, 2020 @03:19PM (#23206383)
Not really. You’d have to replace it with the third, fourth, and fifth COMBINED. Since your point is that Coronavirus concerns are overblown, you might want to reconsider it.
Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by ceejayoz on Saturday May 16, 2020 @10:53AM (#23203848)
What’s the R0 value for heart disease? They’re entirely different beasts.
Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by umanwizard on Saturday May 16, 2020 @11:10AM (#23203995)
Heart disease isn’t contagious, so the R_0 is zero. Can you explain what this has to do with my comment?
Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by ceejayoz on Saturday May 16, 2020 @02:03PM (#23205714)
The point: If heart disease was contagious, we’d probably treat that with what you’re describing as “panic” too.

Your comment compares apples to oranges. Heart disease has no way to grow exponentially. COVID deaths can.

Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by umanwizard on Saturday May 16, 2020 @02:22PM (#23205858)
If heart disease were contagious the panic would be justified because it would way more people than COVID-19.
Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by ceejayoz on Saturday May 16, 2020 @03:18PM (#23206365)
The the panic over COVID is justified, as it has already exceeded heart disease for the #1 spot… and it’s contagious.
Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by danharaj on Saturday May 16, 2020 @12:38PM (#23204942)
One risk is self limiting whereas the other is self propagating with unknown long term consequences.
Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by arcticbull on Saturday May 16, 2020 @12:56PM (#23205090)
This is quintessentially the human propensity to fear the new/unknown more than the known. Over your life 3,500,000 people will die in car accidents in the US, 6,000,000 will die of the flu. 7,000,000 will die of opioid overdoses. Each of these has serious, long-term consequences.

We shouldn't panic, we should make decisive decisions based on the best information we have, and we should seek to reject fear-driven reactions just because something's new and scary.

R_0 really isn't relevant, we're all in all of these together.

Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by danharaj on Saturday May 16, 2020 @01:09PM (#23205186)
As I have mentioned in another thread, when you're dealing with an extreme process with exponential growth and a large absence of information, """"fear"""", also known as respecting your fucking ignorance, is most rational.

Even if after the fact it looks like the pandemic didn't have catastrophic long term effects, it was still rational to be extremely cautious.

Car accidents don't have the potential to collapse society. A car crash has a chance to cause other crashes but that correlation dies off exponentially fast over relatively small time and distance scales. A pandemic in our modern connected world is basically scale invariant without mitigations.

With exponential phenomena, if you wait for evidence of extreme downside it'll already be too late. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You can't wait, you have to act on your ignorance. This is not "panic".

Rationality is not just about reasoning about what you know, it's about reasoning about what you don't know as well. In typical, mundane processes you can act on ignorance by collecting evidence. In extreme, self-propagating processes, one needs to apply the rationality of ignorance: extreme value theory and the statistics of extreme distributions.

Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by davidw on Saturday May 16, 2020 @11:05AM (#23203944)
I've settled on "healthy fear" as my view of the proper reaction.

Panic isn't helpful and you can't sustain it.

Disregard is just plain stupid - it's a lethal disease that messes up a lot of young and healthy people pretty seriously.

Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by umanwizard on Saturday May 16, 2020 @11:14AM (#23204033)
> it's a lethal disease that messes up a lot of young and healthy people pretty seriously.

What definitions of “a lot” (using actual numbers, not anecdotes) and “messes up” are you using here?

Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by api on Saturday May 16, 2020 @11:22AM (#23204117)
It's amazing how grossly irrational we are about risk.

We just spent two decades being terrified of terrorism, giving up hard won civil rights and spending trillions on needless wars. Terrorism never even approached the damage caused by a damn bat virus. 9/11 killed about 2000 people and caused a tiny fraction of the economic damage, and that was by orders of magnitude the largest terror attack.

Same goes for random mass shootings, serial killers, most drugs (except maybe fentanyl), street crime, and so on.

It makes more sense to be alarmed about this than any of those things, yet many of the same voices that were in utter panic over that stuff are dismissive of this.

Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by umanwizard on Saturday May 16, 2020 @11:30AM (#23204192)
What people believe about other things is irrelevant.

The fact that a lot of people are hypocrites for being dismissive of COVID-19 is true, but completely unrelated to whether being dismissive of it is rationally warranted.

Conservatives who thought starting wars because of terrorism was justified and liberals who think shutting down civilization for months because of a moderately lethal viral pandemic is justified might both be wrong.

Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by maxerickson on Saturday May 16, 2020 @11:53AM (#23204422)
shutting down civilization

Not a reasonable description of stay at home orders with electricity, running water and (for many anyway) grocery deliveries.

Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by SpicyLemonZest on Saturday May 16, 2020 @12:23PM (#23204775)
For many people it is. Not everyone is capable of thriving when sitting at home all day. Imagine how you or I would feel if the Internet were cut off indefinitely; that's what a lot of people feel when they're told they can't go anywhere or do anything.
Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by umanwizard on Saturday May 16, 2020 @12:21PM (#23204759)
Replace it in your mind with whatever term you think is appropriate. Doesn’t much change my point.
Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by lukami on Saturday May 16, 2020 @01:53PM (#23205612)
Where did you get that it’s only the “liberals” who think that lock-down is necessary to combat this virus? Here are some countries that have imposed lock-down and can hardly be described as liberal: China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Algeria, Pakistan. Interestingly, one of the most liberal countries in the world, Sweden, is the one that didn’t impose a lock-down.
Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by umanwizard on Saturday May 16, 2020 @02:24PM (#23205875)
My comment is specifically about the US, where support for the lockdown is strongly correlated with support for one of the two major ideologies on the US-specific political spectrum.

Sorry for not making it clear that what I was saying wasn’t intended to be applicable internationally.

Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by api on Saturday May 16, 2020 @03:08PM (#23206256)
It wasn't like that in the beginning of the pandemic.

Any potential source of division in the US gets seized upon by the utterly massive partisan propaganda machinery (of both parties) and turned into a fault line with which to segment the electorate. Nothing is immune, and the process is advanced, scientific, industrial scale, and highly effective.

The reason billions are spent to do this to us is that elections are largely decided by whose base is most fired up to actually bother to vote. That means it's less about debating issues or convincing anyone and more about firing up the base with fear, hate, or other base emotions that tend to translate easily to action.

Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by lukami on Saturday May 16, 2020 @04:15PM (#23206839)
Then what is the basis for your assumption that liberals [in the US] might be wrong when they support the lock-down if almost everywhere else in the world conservatives and liberals agree that lock-down is necessary?
Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by GordonS on Saturday May 16, 2020 @11:27AM (#23204172)
Yep, Bruce Schneier has written some interesting articles over the years about this - how people perceive risks like terrorism as high, despite the reality.

Ultimately it seems to be about what fits the government's narrative, more than anything else. Whatever they can use to spread fear is something they perceive as good - it deflects from real issues at home, and can be used to justify otherwise dubious actions (e.g. having a populace scared of terrorism was the perfect situation for invading Iraq).

Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by kyboren on Saturday May 16, 2020 @12:22PM (#23204764)
I think rather it is ultimately about fear; governments merely exploit fear to push their policies. To be clear, I nearly entirely agree with you. I just think that government narratives are not the ultimate source of this irrationality. The ultimate source is fear.

Another classic example: Few people fear dying in a car accident, but many people fear dying a plane crash, despite the relative probabilities being skewed entirely in the other direction. This irrationality is not part of any government narrative, it is simply fueled by fear.

Humans are terrible at rationally evaluating risks and, especially when trained by the media they consume, fear the dumbest things (dying in a mass shooting vs. dying in a police shooting, plane crashes vs. car crashes, immigrants vs. other community members, brain-eating amoebas vs. swimming pools, etc. etc.).

Re:Coronavirus: A third of hospital patients develop dangero... by GordonS on Saturday May 16, 2020 @12:39PM (#23204943)
Actually yes, you've put it better than me. On reflection, my comment does seem like I point to governments as the ultimate source, but really it is fear itself, which in turn is exploited by govs.