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Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by rayiner on Thursday May 14, 2020 @10:28AM (#23179952)
> I'd much rather live in Sweden or Germany

Sweden never closed down, and Germany is in the midst of reopening. As to the safety net—there is no evidence that safety net has made a difference. (I’m part, I suspect, because the Us already has a comprehensive safety net for the elderly population that is mainly affected by COVID-19). The death rate in the US, per 100,000 people, is well below that of Sweden. It’s also far lower than the death rate in countries with well developed safety nets like France and Italy.

I strongly suspect that people in Germany/Sweden, etc., have more trust in their government because the people themselves are simply less far apart. To pick a controversial but illustrative example: in Germany the outside limit on abortions is 12 weeks—shorter than in any US state. (Excepting a few “heartbeat law” states where the laws have not yet taken effect.) But within that period, abortions are generally available. No such compromise is possible in America. The right is currently focused on ending abortion entirely, while the left is trying to extend abortions into the third trimester (which are pretty much unprecedented in Europe). Or take taxes. Many in the right want to dismantle the existing tax system. But on the left, they treat lowering corporate taxes to the same level as Sweden or Germany (and France and Canada, etc.) not merely as bad policy, but as an affront to morality and decency.

The same is true for COVID-19. In every European country, there is a grown up debate about balancing health and safety with the need to reopen the economy. The American left, meanwhile, has condemned even the idea of such balancing as racist, classist, colonialism, what have you. The left greeted travel bans—which countries from Germany to New Zealand to Denmark have imposed to great effect—as manifest racism and xenophobia. They’re not talking about reopening, as Europe is already doing, but sheltering in place through the rest of 2020. The right, meanwhile, is shouting “give me liberty or give me death.” There is no trust because everybody is crazy, and everybody hates each other, and we should give up being one country and disband the union already.

Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by thatfrenchguy on Thursday May 14, 2020 @10:42AM (#23180123)
> : in Germany the outside limit on abortions is 12 weeks—shorter than in any US state. (Excepting a few “heartbeat law” states where the laws have not yet taken effect.) But within that period, abortions are generally available. No such compromise is possible in Americ

You seem to forget that in France & Germany, people go to the Netherlands or Spain for abortions after 12 weeks. It’s not a « compromise », it’s just a 1970s law that hasn’t been changed because conservative groups are annoying.

Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by rayiner on Thursday May 14, 2020 @11:31AM (#23180739)
For the American audience: the limits are 12 weeks in France, 14 weeks in Spain, and 24 weeks in the Netherlands.

For the European audience: the shortest abortion period that is currently in effect in the US is Mississippi’s at 20 weeks: https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/922-3.jpg. Shorter ones have been proposed but have been stayed pending litigation. Most of the deep south is close to the Netherlands line at 22 weeks. Most of the blue states limit up to viability, which can be up to 28 weeks. 7 states have no limit whatsoever. (Note that I’m not taking a position in what’s right; I’m just describing how various countries have addressed a divisive issue.)

As to “conservative groups” being annoying—that makes it sound like something the majority agrees with but they just haven’t gotten around to updating the law. In fact, the dominant party in both France and Germany has opposed lengthening the current periods. The woman Angela Merkel hand-picked to be her successor as leader of the CDU is against abortion entirely, like many in the CDU. Merkel has maintained the status quo precisely as a compromise between her party and the more liberal parties in Germany.

Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by vkou on Thursday May 14, 2020 @12:36PM (#23181658)
In practice, regardless of what that law says, you can't get an abortion in the deep south. There are fewer licensed clinics than there are letters 'i' in Mississippi.

Despite what you've listed, there are other laws on the books that make operating one nearly impossible - they can't be located within a mile of a school, they need to have admission powers at a hospital, etc, etc.

Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by rayiner on Thursday May 14, 2020 @01:13PM (#23182262)
Well, that’s a major overstatement. The abortion rate in Mississippi (i.e. abortions performed in the state) was 1,000 per million people. In Germany, there were 1,200 per million. Spain is about twice as high at 2,000 per million. (It’s also not clear that difference can be explained by differences in access. People might be less likely to seek an abortion in a state where 60% of people in Mississippi self-identify as “pro life.”) There are definitely restrictions; I’m just pushing back on your assumption that those restrictions are so effective in practice that “you can’t get an abortion in Mississippi.”

Apart from that, those restrictions are part of my point. Germans have achieved a compromise, involving fairly high paper requirements for getting an abortion—including limiting most abortions to the first trimester and requiring counseling and a waiting period. German state-sponsored health insurance also generally does not cover abortions absent medical necessity. But the other side of the compromise is that, once those requirements are met, the procedure is relatively accessible.

In the US, the German compromise would be unthinkable to both sides. Here, the battleground for the right is laws limiting abortions to six weeks and abusing zoning laws to shut down clinics. The battleground for the left is things like public funding (not universal in Europe), making third trimester abortions a matter of discretionary medical judgment (highly unusual in Europe), and eliminating medical providers’ rights to refuse to perform abortions for conscience or religious reasons (a right that is nearly universal in Europe).

Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by selimthegrim on Saturday May 16, 2020 @08:44AM (#23202941)
This isn’t true - I used to live around the corner from a clinic in New Orleans (not the planned parenthood) that got picketed all the time
Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by toomuchtodo on Thursday May 14, 2020 @10:34AM (#23180022)
Great comment and analysis.
Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by apacheCamel on Thursday May 14, 2020 @01:17PM (#23182317)
>There is no trust because everybody is crazy, and everybody hates each other, and we should give up being one country and disband the union already.

That seems like a mighty big next step and one that many of "not-so-friendly" countries would want the US to take.