News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Can AI Become Conscious? by staticassertion on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @06:24PM (#23160793)
But we understand tons of things without simulating them.
Re:Can AI Become Conscious? by gogoincar on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @06:40PM (#23160958)
Can you give some examples? I'm guessing there is a different in definition of understanding here.

As I interpret GP, the claim is you can't describe something in sufficient detail to simulate it, then you don't actually understand it. You may have a higher-order model that generally holds, or holds given some constraints, but that's more of a "what" understanding rather than the higher-bar of "why".

Re:Can AI Become Conscious? by staticassertion on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @06:46PM (#23161025)
I don't think that's what they're saying. We could have the detail and understanding but lack compute.

It seems that they are saying that a simulation is required for proof. We write proofs for things all the time without exhaustively simulating the variants.

Re:Can AI Become Conscious? by Reelin on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @07:06PM (#23161199)
I explicitly called out the case where issues arise solely due to lack of compute in my original comment.

I never claimed that a simulation is required for proof, just that an unexpectedly broken (but correctly implemented) simulation demonstrates that the model is flawed.

Re:Can AI Become Conscious? by staticassertion on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @07:31PM (#23161396)
> (but correctly implemented)

Do you ensure this by simulating it?

Re:Can AI Become Conscious? by Reelin on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @07:44PM (#23161521)
No? It honestly seems like you're being intentionally obtuse. The simulation being correctly implemented is an underlying assumption; in the face of failure the implementer is stuck determining the most likely cause.

Take for example cryptographic primitives. We often rely on mathematical proofs of their various properties. Obviously there could be an error in those proofs in which case it is understood that the proof would no longer hold. But we double (and triple, and ...) check, and then we go ahead and use them on the assumption that they're correct.

Re:Can AI Become Conscious? by SAI_Peregrinus on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @10:13PM (#23162694)
> Can you give some examples? I'm guessing there is a different in definition of understanding here.

I'm not the previous poster, but how about the Halting Problem? The defining feature is that you can't just simulate it with a Turing machine. Yet the proof is certainly understandable.

Re:Can AI Become Conscious? by Reelin on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @06:27PM (#23160823)
If you think you understand something, write a simulation which you expect to work based on that understanding, and it doesn't work - did you really understand it?
Re:Can AI Become Conscious? by burnte on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @07:31PM (#23161399)
Maybe, maybe your simulation is just buggy. I can write a simulator of how my wife would react to the news I'm cheating on her, and fail miserably, but I'm quite positive I understand how she would actually react.
Re:Can AI Become Conscious? by Reelin on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @07:48PM (#23161566)
Yes, you have to debug your code. I suspect that the people who implemented OpenWorm are capable of and have done that.
Re:Can AI Become Conscious? by staticassertion on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @06:44PM (#23161006)
OK, what if the simulation works, did you understand it before?
Re:Can AI Become Conscious? by Reelin on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @07:06PM (#23161197)
Not necessarily. A working simulation (for some testable subset of states) doesn't carry any hard and fast logical implications about your understanding.

On the other hand, assuming no errors in implementation then a broken simulation which you had expected to work directly implies that your understanding is flawed.