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Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by ashtonkem on Monday May 11, 2020 @05:00PM (#23147020)
Nonsense.

First of all, you regularly consume items where the price is determined by demand, not production cost. Cars, housing, and premium products regularly sell for multiples of what they cost to produce.

Secondly, just because something’s expensive to produce doesn’t mean that it’s valuable to anyone else. This is a common problem in customized products, but also happens when market demand either fails to materialize or collapses. Your ultra premium buggy whip might be incredibly expensive to produce, but if nobody wants buggy whips you can’t sell it high enough to make a profit.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by jkhdigital on Monday May 11, 2020 @08:27PM (#23149191)
Good arguments, but irrelevant because Bitcoin is not a consumption good.

Mining is public evidence that someone is willing to burn $X in electricity to acquire a Bitcoin. For an intrinsically worthless monetary asset with no government support, social proof is the only real source of data on possible valuations. See also: Mises’ regression theorem.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by kryogen1c on Monday May 11, 2020 @05:36PM (#23147380)
> Cars, housing, and premium products regularly sell for multiples of what they cost to produce.

many multiples! this is incorrect. the luxury versions of those products you listed certainly have higher margins, but id be surpised if you could find anything with 100% proft margin, much less 3x and beyond.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by ashtonkem on Monday May 11, 2020 @07:34PM (#23148676)
I’ll admit that saying “multiples” was a mistake with that specific list, but you’re picking a nit that does not actually affect my original point.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by jariel on Monday May 11, 2020 @05:38PM (#23147405)
No, it's not nonsense and you just kind of just proved the comment to which you are responding to.

Price is a function of supply and demand and because most markets are fairly competitive, the market-clearing price can be predicted roughly from the cost of production.

'Cars' do not sell at multiples they cost to produce, once you factor in all of the overhead of sales and distribution, margins are fairly thin. Those are 'real costs'.

Almost every single good ever produced is commoditized on some level, and therefore market prices are predictable from the cost of production.

BTC is no exception: if it costs $1 to make $2 in BTC, you can be sure a lot of people will be 'making' BTC until the cost of making BTC and it's market value start to merge.

The remaining demand for BTC ... given the fact it has no use, it's not a currency or a generally accepted store of value ... is speculative in the purest sense. It's whatever a bunch of dudes holding it want to buy and sell them as. Like baseball cards.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by ashtonkem on Monday May 11, 2020 @07:38PM (#23148712)
My original point is that market value cannot be driven entirely by cost of production. This is born out by items that are sold well above production cost, and things that cannot be sold because their high production cost is above what the market will bare. The implication being that saying “bitcoin is worth $X because we spent $X to mine it” is a nonsense statement.

What’s interesting is that you reinforced my point at the very end. Baseball cards are a fantastic example of a product that’s sold in a way that’s completely disassociated from the cost of production.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by jkhdigital on Monday May 11, 2020 @08:33PM (#23149241)
Except that Bitcoin really is worth $X because someone spent $X to mine it. There is no fundamental valuation: Bitcoin is made up Internet money. It is worth whatever people are willing to pay for it. Mining is public evidence that people all over the world (well, kind of) are burning money to acquire Bitcoin. Maybe those people are cranks, but they do have skin in the game.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by ashtonkem on Monday May 11, 2020 @08:55PM (#23149390)
No, people are willing to spend $x to mine bitcoin because they can sell it for $x, not the other way around. If I spend 2x as much mining bitcoin, the price doesn’t double. But if the price doubles, I can afford to spend 2x more mining it.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by AgentME on Monday May 11, 2020 @06:28PM (#23147885)
>BTC is no exception: if it costs $1 to make $2 in BTC, you can be sure a lot of people will be 'making' BTC until the cost of making BTC and it's market value start to merge.

Bitcoin is weird though because no matter how many miners there are, it's still minted at the same rate globally. If it cost a miner $1 to make $2 in Bitcoin, what would not happen is new miners joining and flooding the market with more Bitcoins until the price of Bitcoin falls. Instead, new miners would keep joining and the miners would be cutting into each other's profits until it cost them all approximately $2 to make $2 in Bitcoin.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by jariel on Monday May 11, 2020 @07:01PM (#23148259)
Then you're saying people are acting irrationally or there are other non-marginal costs to consider (i.e. startup costs) in which case you're really saying it's >> $1 to mine a BTC.

But that's not really the point.

Let me put it differently: if it costs $1 to mine $1000 worth of BTC ... then, new miners will flood the market until the cost of mining reaches parity with price. This is not a BTC specific or controversial statement here.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by davrosthedalek on Monday May 11, 2020 @11:04PM (#23150168)
The argument is that in most markets, this parity is reached by bringing the price down. For bitcoin, it is reached by bringing the cost up. More miners means it gets harder to mine, so it costs more.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by AgentME on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @05:48PM (#23160349)
>For bitcoin, it is reached by bringing the cost up. More miners means it gets harder to mine, so it costs more.

I think this is what you meant, but just to clarify: the cost of mining will go up, not the cost of Bitcoin. (Miners joining or leaving shouldn't directly affect the price of Bitcoin. The same number of Bitcoins exist and get minted regardless of the number or activity of miners, as long as it's nonzero anyway, so miner activity doesn't directly affect the supply and demand of Bitcoin.)