News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by gibolt on Monday May 04, 2020 @04:53AM (#23065823)
As much as I wish it were better, most online courses offered by universities do not come close to the in-person experience. Their real goal/outcome is to increase access.

Professors are trained (most at least) to teach in-person and have assignments and curriculums that match. They can't redo that appropriately to be equally effective within a week or two. Few could do it well given over a year doing online only.

Tools are being built and the experience will improve thanks to this global reset.

Education is a space that hasn't really been disrupted ever. Definitely isn't happening within a few weeks.

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by swiley on Monday May 04, 2020 @05:11AM (#23065918)
Why was this downvoted? I failed a class and took the online version once so I got to see both sides.

The online version had:

1) lots of busywork for the sake of busywork (to make up for attendance?)

2) much poorer instruction. Like everything felt like it was written by someone (really a group of people) who didn’t understand the subject very well, which was strange because the in person class was taught by a DR. with a very good understand and a strong passion for it.

3) no organic classroom interaction, people making friends that way have to be an extreme exception. It almost felt like this was actively discouraged to avoid a liability? I’m not sure, but that’s a huge part of the value of going to class that’s totally gone now.

4) and because of that no real discussion (you had discussion boards but those are more like public essays than real conversations.)

The only reason it’s better than just reading a book and doing exercises is that all the administrators recognize you’ve done it, the whole situation is just really dumb.

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by watwut on Monday May 04, 2020 @07:15AM (#23066636)
It was downvoted, because many people here want in person classes to be useless waste of time. They don't want to hear they are better then online. That is mostly due to high price of price of us college.

But imo, content issues are fixable, it just takes way more time. Good online courses with good content and good exercises will become more common.

What will be harder is to simulate the social effects and mutual communication, that will be fixable too in time. That will however require also changes outside of school - people will have to learn how to find friendships and communities without institutional support of school.

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by sfj on Monday May 04, 2020 @07:33AM (#23066750)
I think that if just the classes were live, no/few exceptions, and the student to teacher ratio was kept low, that would be a big step.
Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by grumple on Monday May 04, 2020 @09:37AM (#23067869)
Online courses I've taken have been much better than in-person courses.

Online courses have several advantages:

1) The lecturer can prepare a video, refine it, and have others review it before it makes it to the students. Errors can be corrected and annotations can be added.

2) Quizzes, tests, and projects can be effectively randomized to dissuade cheating (see coursera courses).

3) Other resources can be linked directly in the material.

4) Written information for the courses can be intermixed with video lectures.

5) Asking questions is easy and doesn't disrupt the rest of the class.

6) You learn at your own rate.

Most of my more challenging courses at university (math and engineering) did not have any discussion anyway, and the instruction was extremely poor. If Khan Academy or Coursera had existed at the time, I'd have done much better using those courses than learning from my actual professors.

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by swiley on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @01:04AM (#23076711)
That doesn’t sound like an undergrad online course. Universities could make courses with all of those features but IME and looking at what my friends have seen in theirs they don’t. I’m not sure if it’s an institutional requirement or if it’s because they know they can get away without it and don’t bother.
Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by hollandheese on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @03:35PM (#23083942)
Most of that is because those are hard requirements to fulfill for most professors. Video production is pretty difficult to do well. The university I teach for basically offered no help in that realm in our transition. They basically just told us we had to transition to online in two days, gave us some bullcrap professional development on how to use Canvas, and then fed us to the wolves.

Make sure to blame the university, not the professors. We're trying our best with almost no help.

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by geomark on Monday May 04, 2020 @07:40AM (#23066802)
Did you say that you took an online class once? And based on that one experience you have seen both sides?

Just askin'

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by gbrown on Monday May 04, 2020 @08:39AM (#23067205)
Surely you realize that this is not a universal experience...
Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by intended on Monday May 04, 2020 @06:36AM (#23066435)
Education has been disrupted.

The disruption taught us that education is more than what we think of when we imagine the word studying.

Khan Academy exists, and has existed for a while.

The MOOC rush is over. We know the organic retention rates are abysmal.

Online education was/is the holy grail of 2000 era layman ideas of education.

Free, world class, available at your finger tips, at any time, educational content.

Yet We know that with this world class information and self selected motivated students (!!) only a tiny fraction of the class will finish.

In contrast, most people who get in, finish college.

In person education beats online education hollow.

Matter of fact even the work from home enthusiasm will wane and return to office work.

There are too many things people do by being in proximity to each other which may have nothing to do with the “mission”, but make the mission possible.

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by jimhefferon on Monday May 04, 2020 @07:04AM (#23066576)
I went from lurking on HN to joining during the "MOOC rush" exactly because people did not seem to get that for the broad student population, online is nowhere near as useful as in person. While there are some percentage of people who have the motivation and skills to get out of online systems everything they would get out of in-class, the percentage is small.

For example, when I am teaching a class, it is a dynamic process. I am responding to people's questions, they are responding to my response, etc. Most of that goes away online. There are some attempts to recreate it, but most students just do not find it is the same.

You put your finger on it exactly: "most people who get in, finish."

But that doesn't address the article. I am not a lawyer, but the suit seems foolish to me. Colleges were ordered to close. That seems relevant to me.

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by intended on Monday May 04, 2020 @07:16AM (#23066645)
Yes, this doesn't address the article.

Conversations here usually shift from the article to some variant of "disrupt education" and college is signalling.

I find Bloom's 2 Sigma problem to be illustrative of the extent to which online learning is a loss to students. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_2_sigma_problem

Studying in person has significantly different results.

The students are askign for partial refunds for tuition, not just room and board. I think this is a fair ask, and should be recompensed in some way or the other.

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by ghaff on Monday May 04, 2020 @08:46AM (#23067275)
Yes, colleges were mostly told to close although some were closing at least for undergraduates before the orders came down.

>The students are askign for partial refunds for tuition, not just room and board. I think this is a fair ask, and should be recompensed in some way or the other.

I'm sympathetic. The students aren't getting what they paid for. It's no one in particular's fault, but the service being paid for is being delivered in degraded form. I'm not sure you can even argue that, in general, the students will still get credit for this semester's courses because some classes probably can't be completed and, for a variety of reasons, many students will probably lose part of this semester and end up tacking on time to their degree as a result.

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by treis on Monday May 04, 2020 @09:06AM (#23067523)
>The MOOC rush is over. We know the organic retention rates are abysmal.

As a counter point to this, roughly 1/2 of med students attend class in person never or rarely. They use online resources because they think it's more efficient. They still pay the 50k a year for med school because they need the credential and it's the gateway for the clinical instruction in years 3/4 that has to be done in person.

The problem with the MOOC model is that it doesn't serve as a credential that people trust

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by 11eleven on Monday May 04, 2020 @07:33AM (#23066751)
> In contrast, most people who get in, finish college. > In person education beats online education hollow.

This isn't really true.

"According to the National Center for Education Statistics, just 41% of first-time full-time college students earn a bachelor’s degree in four years, and only 59% earn a bachelor’s in six years."

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/19/just-41percent-of-college-st...

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by intended on Monday May 04, 2020 @08:00AM (#23066941)
As you yourself point out, 59% finish in 6 years.

In contrast, these are MOOC completion rates:

>Among all MOOC participants, 3.13 percent completed their courses in 2017-18, down from about 4 percent the two previous years and nearly 6 percent in 2014-15.

www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/article/2019/01/16/study-offers-data-show-moocs-didnt-achieve-their-goals

They add:

>Certainly 55,000 people got access to education they might not otherwise have had. But "rather than creating new pathways at the margins of global higher education," the authors write, "MOOCs are primarily a complementary asset for learners within existing systems."

They do allude to a construct called "Verfied Students" which I have no idea about, which have higher but significantly varying completion rates.

> And among the "verified" students, 46 percent completed in 2017-18, compared to 56 percent in 2016-17 and about 50 percent the two previous years.

I have never encountered how that cohort was constructed, however if we are to start breaking down sub groups of students from general numbers, your data shows that non-profit and public institutions have near 60% graduation rates at 6 years.

In general a random student will more will likely graduate from a college, than a random person starting a MOOC.

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by gbrown on Monday May 04, 2020 @08:42AM (#23067235)
It’s not really a meaningful comparison though - MOOCs have a lower (zero) barrier to entry, and a lower (zero) price of dropping. College is expensive, requires admission, and confers actual credit/degrees.
Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by ashtonkem on Monday May 04, 2020 @08:41AM (#23067224)
I view a MOOC as similar to a well funded public library. A fantastic tool for entertainment, current students, and professionals looking for very specific things. But it’s not a replacement for guided education.
Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by rgblambda on Monday May 04, 2020 @07:51AM (#23066880)
>The MOOC rush is over. We know the organic retention rates are abysmal.

I don't think I've ever completed a MOOC. When I get what I want out of it I drop it. Now if I was paying for it or if completion was a requirement for a job or promotion I think I'd be more invested in completing the course.

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by intended on Monday May 04, 2020 @08:10AM (#23066996)
True, and this one reason among many why MOOC Retention rates are at 3%.

This is one of the reasons that online education will fall behind real world college classes.

Another is whether people learn the same amount.

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by ashtonkem on Monday May 04, 2020 @08:40AM (#23067211)
The lack of structure and pressure is also a thing. In a traditional class you must show up or miss out. MOOCs are available at all times forever, which means you can watch them “someday”, which is usually the same as “never”.
Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by rgblambda on Wednesday May 06, 2020 @03:43AM (#23088750)
Honestly I'd rather have the MOOCs there so I can access them as though they were a library. You get more context than on Stackoverflow but you don't have to commit to several classes or find out early on that you picked the wrong course.
Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by jnwatson on Monday May 04, 2020 @04:53PM (#23073116)
Most people who get in don't indeed finish college.

"The official four-year graduation rate for students attending public colleges and universities is 33.3%. The six-year rate is 57.6%."

Most MOOCs have poor retention because there's no commitment. There's no reason to continue to apply oneself.

I've had a great deal of success with Coursera and a small in-person study group to keep us committed.

I spent 4 hours yesterday on Kahn Academy remembering my calculus so I could help my daughter.

MOOCs are invaluable resources, but those alone are insufficient. Support and study groups are an important adjunct.

*: https://www.cappex.com/articles/blog/government-publishes-gr...

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by ashtonkem on Monday May 04, 2020 @08:38AM (#23067201)
In retrospect, the idea that MOOCs could come anywhere close to replacing colleges was folly. While not universally available, the tools for self education have been available for a long time in major metropolitan areas, and we know that serious self education there is a relatively rare thing.
Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by sfj on Monday May 04, 2020 @07:30AM (#23066732)
Maybe VR will change things?
Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by intended on Monday May 04, 2020 @07:58AM (#23066930)
VR is still not R. At some point you want to recreate body language, relative positioning, and you want the interface to get away from intruding on the experience.

The whole point of things like technology is to make things easier, keyboards and mice make it possible to manipulate tools to increase the amount of actions we can execute by using programmed automation (for example).

VR just makes doing that more expensive.

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by gbrown on Monday May 04, 2020 @08:38AM (#23067193)
> Professors are trained (most at least) to teach in-person

Generally, professors are not trained to teach at all. They’re trained to research.

That being said, I was already teaching a hybrid online and in person course, so the transition was (at least from my perspective) pretty seamless. We’ll see how the students feel after we receive evaluations.

Re:Unimpressed by online classes, college students file laws... by newsclues on Monday May 04, 2020 @08:59AM (#23067441)
Professors don’t get much training on how to educate.

Schools could run a month long course, aimed at online learning, to match their current IRL teaching training