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Re:Windows 10 has “python” command that redirects to the Win... by jcrawfordor on Sunday May 03, 2020 @10:42PM (#23064043)
This issue is largely OS X related rather than Python-related per se. OS X ships with vendored copies of many common Python libraries which you cannot update, and so if you need to use newer libraries you have to install them in some other location and fiddle with the path to make sure your versions are loaded before the OS X versions. Because the versions included in OS X (including the version of the Python runtime) are pretty old almost everyone ends up doing this.

In theory homebrew takes care of the whole thing for you but, in practice... as an only part-time OS X user I have run into a lot of problems with the path getting set in various ways that end up in various copies of the Python interpreter or library paths getting loaded, resulting in runtime errors due to library versions being inconsistent with the interpreter version or expected libraries not being loaded...

A further complication is that, the specific way that Apple vendored a set of python packages, it is possible but not particularly easy to add new packages to the OS-provided Python runtime, so most users, if they want some package that Apple didn't include, seem to end up installing a whole new environment just to get that package, even if the OS-provided environment were otherwise acceptable to them.

It's a very real problem and very frustrating, but I'm not quite willing to blame it on the Python ecosystem because it seems to be pretty much a result of Apple's decision to ship an interpreter and set of libraries that most users will end up being unhappy with. Anecdotally at least I run into these issues a lot less on Linux because even with fairly stable distributions (e.g. RHEL7.5/8) the included interpreter and library are more recent and the package repositories include most of the Python packages you would want, maintained to match the OS interpreter version. So while some people do end up using virtual environments it's less necessary than it is on OS X, where it frankly seems near impossible to do anything without installing a whole second Python environment and munging paths.

An extra complication is that, as a casual OS X user, it seems to me like OS X terminal emulators and tools are more likely to munge with the path than Linux terminal emulators and tools, so even if you get everything set up "just right" you end up having it not work properly in certain contexts like plugins because something has modified the path for some reason.

Edited to expand that, I guess what I mean to say but failed to articulate, is that the fundamental problem here (in my opinion) is that OS X ships with a Python distribution but not with a package manager. That's the fundamental difference from Linux where these problems are much less common. Third-party package managers like Homebrew and Macports are used, and in order to have full control of the Python environment they have to install a whole second copy because they are not allowed to tamper with the OS X Python environment. This pretty inevitably leads to frustration. The best solution would seem to be for Apple to provide some kind of "first-party-ish" package management functionality, perhaps something like Chocalatey which is not a Microsoft product but is built on Windows-provided primitives, so that the package managers that users are actually using can play nicely with the OS X Python environment.

Re:Windows 10 has “python” command that redirects to the Win... by pvg on Sunday May 03, 2020 @11:03PM (#23064142)
An extra complication is that, as a casual OS X user, it seems to me like OS X terminal emulators and tools are more likely to munge with the path

This might be a function of the casualness rather than the tools. Here's a thing to check out on OS X:

    man path_helper 
I didn't know about this for ages and it makes your path life much saner - at least you'll have some idea where seemingly magical paths come from. Personally, I use it for everything and don't let other profile scripts eff with the global path at all.
Re:Windows 10 has “python” command that redirects to the Win... by tptacek on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:05PM (#23071266)
You set up your personal shell paths by adding files to /etc/paths.d/?
Re:Windows 10 has “python” command that redirects to the Win... by pvg on Monday May 04, 2020 @05:08PM (#23073273)
With neither shame nor ruth. Is there some non-aesthetic reason not to?
Re:Windows 10 has “python” command that redirects to the Win... by tptacek on Monday May 04, 2020 @07:08PM (#23074443)
No! Well other than not having your whole shell environment in your dotfiles. It just wouldn’t have occurred to me.
Re:Windows 10 has “python” command that redirects to the Win... by pfranz on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:41AM (#23064623)
Linux has often had the same issue. The problem is the OS relies on system installed Python and package versions. If you, as a user, upgrade Python or those packages the OS may not gracefully handle them. In Linux you can end up with an unbootable OS. I'm not sure if you could blame Python devs or the OS devs (or the user).

Homebrew can help with distinction, letting the user install to `/usr/local/bin/python` while the OS continues to use `/usr/bin/python`. My personal solution is to install Python packages into my homedir (--user) or use virtualenvs. This also helps when six months from now you want a "clean" setup.

I've pushed any organization I've worked at who heavily relies on Python to decouple Python from the OS because of this and so OS updates can be independent of Python updates.

Re:Windows 10 has “python” command that redirects to the Win... by saagarjha on Monday May 04, 2020 @01:46AM (#23064932)
> An extra complication is that, as a casual OS X user, it seems to me like OS X terminal emulators and tools are more likely to munge with the path than Linux terminal emulators and tools, so even if you get everything set up "just right" you end up having it not work properly in certain contexts like plugins because something has modified the path for some reason.

GUI apps not being able to access $PATH is a big one, I have found.

Re:Windows 10 has “python” command that redirects to the Win... by _bxg1 on Sunday May 03, 2020 @11:07PM (#23064160)
So it sounds like more of a packages thing than an interpreter thing; basically "DLL hell" all over again.

Setting aside all other axes of comparison, it sounds like Node really learned from Python with regards to this problem. Install Node itself, do an NPM install, and you're golden.

Re:Windows 10 has “python” command that redirects to the Win... by desert_boi on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:38AM (#23064604)
Until your global installs get stale/conflict with new global installs. npx is pretty handy for this problem though.
Re:Windows 10 has “python” command that redirects to the Win... by _bxg1 on Monday May 04, 2020 @10:18AM (#23068347)
I would say the key is not relying on global installs. By default all NPM dependencies are installed locally alongside the manifest. You use more disk space, but disk space is cheap these days.