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Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by baggy_trough on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @01:31AM (#23003727)
Baffling comment. Providing rental property is a legitimate business.
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by alexbanks on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @02:18AM (#23004000)
Providing rental property is yet another industry in which "Why don't we just screw over people with no options" has prevailed. It may be legitimate in that people need places to live, but it is far from legitimate in any way regarding getting what is paid for.
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by baggy_trough on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @02:59AM (#23004269)
Stating that being a landlord is "far from legitimate in any way regarding getting what is paid for" is really a grotesque exaggeration.
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by alexbanks on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:24AM (#23004414)
I suppose you haven't rented an apartment in a major city...
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by baggy_trough on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @02:17PM (#23010043)
Because you have had bad experiences renting apartments, that means an entire sector of the economy is illegitimate? There's a lot more variety to rentals than that.
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by alexbanks on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:00PM (#23011945)
We can agree to disagree.
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by PopeDotNinja on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:47AM (#23005330)
I have never wanted to own a house.
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by SkyBelow on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @09:01AM (#23006516)
Being a legitimate business does not mean I can feel no sympathy or empathy for those who fail in that business. I can think of some legitimate businesses where my feelings of hearing of hardship within that business borderlines on pleasurable (say any legitimate business which is tied to lobbying to increase prison sentences).
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by baggy_trough on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @02:22PM (#23010106)
You can have whatever feelings you like, but comparing property rental to (I assume you mean) for-profit prisons advocating longer sentences is a pretty gargantuan leap.
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by horsemessiah on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @09:22AM (#23006670)
Landlords collect money for owning property. They pay maintenance people slightly above minimum wage to fix any issues that may come up. How is that a legitimate business? What commodities do landlords produce?
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by baggy_trough on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @02:13PM (#23010004)
Legitimate businesses don't have to produce commodities. Look around HN. This isn't 1700.
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by klodolph on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @01:33AM (#23003741)
Read more Adam Smith.

In practice, PMCs in college towns are bad actors. At least, on average. They are basically sitting on an investment (land) and providing the minimum level of work necessary to keep money flowing. It’s a legitimate business in the sense that it is “legal”. However, the profits do not correspond to the value that they provide to the economy.

Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by ColanR on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @01:58AM (#23003892)
> providing the minimum level of work necessary

Is that how you measure the value of the business?

Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by HarryHirsch on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @02:10AM (#23003956)
Yes, landowners and the maintenance they to or fail to do has massive impacts on the lives of their tenants. In an "as-is-where-is" state the only recourse when the roof leaks is to move out. That is expensive and disruptive, and you can't even recover the funds. This fantasy of shareholder value, where everyone takes care of himself, consequently everyone is taken care of is just that: fantasy.
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by klodolph on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @02:25AM (#23004058)
Obviously not—it’s not the amount of work done, but the value which the work provides.

Landlords contribute a small amount of value relative to how much they are paid, compared to other businesses. Most of the value is provided by the land itself, and the landlords merely have a monopoly on it. So I am less inclined to be sympathetic to PMCs which are suddenly being paid less, since they are generally overpaid.

We have to be careful to distinguish rent from actual productive economic activity, because rent provides no value and requires no work. Speaking here of “rent” in the Adam Smith sense of the word.

Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by WalterBright on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @04:08AM (#23004747)
If PMCs are overpaid, then the property owners wouldn't employ them. And if landlords didn't do much work, property owners wouldn't pay PMCs to do that work for them.
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by klodolph on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:13AM (#23005154)
I’m not being perfectly precise in my terminology, and you’re spitting out a compiler error in response.

Landlords/PMCs are overpaid because tenants pay rent not only for the services provided by the landlords/PMCs, but also for access to the land which they own. This happens because the property owners have a monopoly on that piece of land. The rent will increase in accordance with the contributions of the people using the land, and yet the money will be paid instead to the people owning the land.

The Wealth of Nations is on Gutenberg. Skip to Chapter XI in Book 1. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-0.txt

> The rent of land, therefore, considered as the price paid for the use of the land, is naturally a monopoly price. It is not at all proportioned to what the landlord may have laid out upon the improvement of the land, or to what he can afford to take, but to what the farmer can afford to give.

Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by WalterBright on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @06:35AM (#23005600)
If you've ever rented out land, you'd know that the price you can charge is not at all set by what the tenant can afford. Like other prices, it's set by supply and demand.

For an obvious example, if I tried to rent my house out to Bill Gates for $50 billion, which he can afford, how far do you think I'd get with that?

Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by klodolph on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @11:15AM (#23007776)
The key insight here is that demand is driven by what the tenants in an area can afford.

For an obvious example, the rent in Manhattan is higher than the rent in Tulsa because the salaries in Manhattan are higher.

Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by coreyp_1 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @10:25AM (#23007258)
[EDIT: formatting & #7]

Comparing rent on farm land is not the same as rent on housing.

I own a rental house. What does the rent go to? Well, I pay a mortgage, taxes, utilities, and upkeep. That is, I'm saving up now for a roof and a retaining wall (to give better access on one side of the driveway).

What value do the renters receive?

1. No risk. They can walk away, but I still have a 30-year mortgage. The plumbing can fail. The roof can leak. The electric can degrade. The building can crumble. I, the owner, have to fix it IF it happens. The renter does not assume any of that risk.

2. No commitment. Aside from a short lease (which they agree to the terms), the renter has no long-term obligation to that property. I, as the owner, have committed to maintaining the property for decades.

3. Access to the property and all of its features. If you don't think that that is value, then try being homeless.

4. Furthermore, I, as the owner, DO NOT have access to the use of the property. Perhaps for decades.

5. Monopoly? I cannot think of a single example of a monopoly in land ownership other than the government itself and the threat of eminent domain. If you don't like my terms for lease, then go next door. Different owner, different terms. Or buy your own.

6. Initial Investment. I, as an owner, had to save for years to consolidate the capital for the down payment of that property. That means that, for years, I did not party, buy the latest technology, eat at moderately-priced restaurants, go on vacation, buy a shiny new vehicle, purchase concert tickets, etc. I deprived myself of entertainment and luxery to, instead, work multiple jobs, with the intent of having a rental property.

7. Improvement. I improve the property. If I do not pay someone to do it, then it is me doing it myself. I refinished the hardwood floors. I fixed drywall and painted. I removed old ductwork. I provide appliances. I provide furnishing (I rent to students, after all). I put the labor into the property, further depriving myself of other more enjoyable activity.

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with your restrictive definition of what of "rent" represents. Rent is compensation for my years of preparation and self-denial of the reward for my own personal labor. Rent is the fee that the renter pays for not having done the same. Rent is never pure profit. Rent is a continual financial planning for the upkeep and sustaining of the investment.

Do I benefit from my investment? Yes.

Do I feel guilty about it? No.

Should I feel guilty about it? Never.

If you are mad at a landlord for having to pay rent, then dig yourself out of that situation. What if it takes years? Welcome to the club. Do it anyway. So what if you have to move? Again, welcome to the club. Do it anyway. So what if the landlord is wealthy? Wealth has to come from somewhere, and if your current financial strategy isn't making you wealthy, then change it. It will probably take a lifetime to do, but then again, that's probably what your landlord did (or is in the process of doing).

Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by klodolph on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @11:06AM (#23007688)
You’re evaluating the benefits and drawbacks renting and owning, taking our economy and laws for granted. This is different from what I was doing, which was comparing the economic value produced by landlords to the money they are paid for it.

1. Assuming risk is valid. However, it only accounts for a small portion of rent.

2. You do not actually have that kind of commitment. You can sell the property. The only risk here is that you cannot make a profit when you sell it, so this is nothing more than a repeat of point #1.

3/4. Access to use of the property would exist whether or not it had a landlord. The landlord is not providing value here, merely using the power of a government-granted monopoly on the land.

5. Land is not fungible and there is a limited supply. You are granted a monopoly on the land that you own.

6. The reason the initial investment is so high is because local laws are generally put in place to protect the interests of homeowners, over the interests of renters.

7. The improvement only accounts for a small portion of rent.

> I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with your restrictive definition of what of "rent" represents. Rent is compensation for my years of preparation and self-denial of the reward for my own personal labor.

You obviously don’t feel sorry, but you are benefiting from a system which is rigged in your favor, and building capital on the backs of people who actually provide value to the economy. That’s not to say that you are not providing value to the economy—it’s just that the value you provide is much smaller than the amount you are paid for it.

Consider, for a moment, the reason why rent may go up in a particular area. The main reason it goes up is because of the economy in a particular area. The economy makes the rent go up because the people living there are more productive—not because the landlords are more productive! So the landlords are being compensated for other people’s work, when the rent goes up.

> If you are mad at a landlord for having to pay rent, then dig yourself out of that situation.

I wouldn’t get mad at leeches, mosquitos, or other parasites. They are merely making the best out of the ecological niche that they arrived in. But I’m also not going to feel sympathy for parasites, nor am I going to care whether they feel guilty.

Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by coreyp_1 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @11:16AM (#23007789)
LOL... keep being poor and mad...
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by klodolph on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:39PM (#23010933)
Way to reinforce negative stereotypes about landlords.
Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by ColanR on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:02PM (#23013184)
If I can jump in here, based on watching my dad and my grandfather rent properties.

1/2. Risk is a big part of owning property. Liquidity of the property is also very important. You are vastly underestimating this.

3/4. As long as the right to own property exists, the right to exclude access to land that someone owns exists. If the landlord did not rent the property, then only the landlord would have the right to access it. Unless you deny the right to personal property?

5. In the sense you're using it, I have a "monopoly" on my laptop. It's one of those old Thinkpad X230s, and there's a limited supply. You're welcome to buy it from me...but there's also more on ebay. To call my laptop ownership a 'monopoly' is ridiculous, because you can go buy a different one, even though there's a limited supply. In the same way, you can go rent land somewhere else, even though there's a limited supply.

6. That's actually a big factor in deciding where to purchase properties that you want to rent out: do the local laws favor the tenant or the landlord? It can be so expensive as to be not worth the effort, when the laws favor the tenant. If you can't kick someone out until they've gone six months without paying the rent, but still have to pay for the upkeep of the property, then you want to be very, very careful that you find good tenants.

7. In what world to you live in? All that stuff costs thousands of dollars - even just repainting. And it's not just improvement, but upkeep. Plumbers are expensive. Random stuff breaking is expensive. Not everyone has the time or ability to do those things themselves.

> you are benefiting from a system which is rigged in your favor

See 6) above. It's not rigged; housing is a hard problem to solve, and it's expensive on both sides.

> building capital on the backs of people who actually provide value to the economy

Ever stayed in a hotel? Those provide exactly the same benefit as a rental, on a shorter time scale. Or do you not consider hotels valuable?

> The main reason [rent] goes up is because of the economy in a particular area.

The landlord picked a good location to purchase the property. Seems strange you expect the landlord to keep their prices down while everything else gets more expensive. The landlord is still providing value. If you don't like the prices, you're welcome to move somewhere with cheaper apartments...but a cheaper apartment will come with some downsides, too.

> not going to feel sympathy for parasites

I'd say a tenant who failed to pay rent matches the definition of parasite pretty well too.

Providing housing, whether a hotel room or an apartment, is a valuable part of the economy. You've given several reading recommendations in this thread, let me pass you something in return:

Look into what it would actually involve to rent a property in your area - cost to purchase, the building codes that have to be followed, the upgrades that have to be made (a lot of old houses have lead in the paint - that has to be stripped or covered); check out the effort it takes to coordinate with a rental agency to find a decent tenant, and look up the probabilities of the costs associated with bad tenants. It's also worth checking out how long the average tenant rents for, and the cleanup time and effort involved with prepping for the next tenant. Don't forget to check the competition - does the bathroom need to be upgraded? Maybe the houses in your area all have walk-in closets, and the rental agency says you need one too, to stay attractive. How much does the contractor say that'll cost, and how long will it take? Also check out the correlation between rental property destruction and income level - if you rent cheap properties for cheap, what's the cost of repair come to each month?

Final question. Did you decide to skip the above exercise, because it looked too time-consuming and/or difficult?

Re:A List of Colleges’ Plans for Reopening in the Fall by imtringued on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:56AM (#23006130)
Ok, fine. Just shut them down then. It's not like anyone needs their services.