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Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by pjc50 on Monday April 27, 2020 @09:29AM (#22995619)
I would like to raise a frame challenge: what if instead trauma was ubiquitous?

It's not fatal and rarely debilitating. It does affect people's happiness and behaviour throughout their lives. It does not leave traces in the bones or DNA. How would we find an un-traumatized person in a world where injury, sickness and death were far more prevalent at all ages?

Much traditional childrearing practice that's supposed to be "character building" (e.g. corporal punishment; Roald Dahl's description of the process is worth reading) looks instead like a form of trauma inoculation. Get the trauma over with early. Bully anyone who shows signs of being negatively affected by the trauma. People would refuse to show PTSD symptoms under the threat of violence.

WW1 was in some ways unique in that the West had experienced a long period of peace. There were colonial occupations and thousands of troops dying overseas, mostly of disease, but not in Europe itself.

Edit: see also the comment upthread about "being haunted"; the pre-modern world was what Carl Sagan called the "demon haunted world". If you look at a some religious and spiritual practices as trauma-processing, a connection emerges. Parts of the 60s spiritual revival and Jungianism were trying to do this explicitly.

Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by marcus_holmes on Monday April 27, 2020 @09:53AM (#22995806)
WW1 was also different for the troops experiencing it because of the technologies involved.

There was a whole discussion here a few months back about how the WW1 battlefield (blasted trees, churned mud, etc) has shaped our expectations of what battlefields should look like. Before that, the battlefield itself was mostly untouched. Shell shock was a new phenomenon for soldiers from WW1 because it was a new experience for soldiers - artillery barrages just hadn't been that intense before.

Ancient hand-to-hand combat would have been horrific. Never mind trying to survive, just actively trying to hack someone else's body up with a sharp tool, when they're right there, would mess you up pretty bad. If, as TFA says, every able-bodied man in your entire society has experienced this, then every able-bodied man is going to be messed up.

But then, if every woman has gone through multiple stillbirths, child deaths, and so on, then everyone is going to be messed up. What they'd consider "normal" is what we'd consider as "struggling with deep trauma".

I think you're right - everyone would be traumatised by modern standards.

Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by SAI_Peregrinus on Monday April 27, 2020 @10:14AM (#22995993)
Also concussive blast damage was far, far more common from WW1 than in any previous war. The Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) caused by blast damage isn't externally visible, but is responsible for some of the common symptoms of PTSD[1]. We know there are forms of PTSD unrelated to blast-based TBI, but it's quite possible that pre-WWI soliders didn't experience PTSD as much because there weren't as many explosions. Combined with different social views & more traumatic lifestyles the (non-physical injury) trauma of war wouldn't be as great.

Also, surviving a battle injury was far less common before the discovery of antibiotics and the germ theory of disease. Infection from relatively minor wounds caused a much higher death rate. So the surviving soldiers were less likely to have experienced physical trauma and lived long enough to make it into accounts of their behavior afterwards.

[1] https://blastinjuryresearch.amedd.army.mil/assets/docs/newsH...

Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by marcus_holmes on Monday April 27, 2020 @11:29AM (#22996757)
I'm always dubious about this. "Decimation" was a horrific thing, inflicted on Roman Legions as punishment for cowardice. It meant killing one out of every ten soldiers. So it seems to me that that's the extreme upper bound of casualties - 10%. Anything more and running away to face decimation would improve your odds.

But the survivors might well have trauma from their actions not their injuries. Hacking another human to death is traumatic for normal people. The survivors would also have survivor guilt.

Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by csours on Monday April 27, 2020 @12:16PM (#22997215)
I think you also have to consider the fact that throughout history, the individual outcome of battles for most soldiers has been survival - either you win, flee, or become a prisoner. People did die, for sure, but maybe not as many as we imagine.

I wonder how much video games have do to with this perception? In a video game, you have a Kill-Death ratio, not a Kill-Death-Prisoner-Flee-Serious Injury-Light Injury ratio (I know some games have a more sophisticated model, but still).

Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by pjc50 on Monday April 27, 2020 @01:16PM (#22997782)
Or disease or desertion. The majority of Napoleon's troops in the famous Tufte diagram were not lost in battle. The Boer war similarly lost more to disease than combat.
Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by csours on Monday April 27, 2020 @01:54PM (#22998170)
Yup. I think of the Battle of the Bulge this way as well. It's much easier for Americans to identify with the Battle of the Bulge because we have access to many more dramatizations of it, but it was only a hint of what was going on on the Eastern front!
Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by WarOnPrivacy on Monday April 27, 2020 @10:25AM (#22996098)
> What they'd consider "normal" is what we'd consider as "struggling with deep trauma". I think you're right - everyone would be traumatized by modern standards.

I suspect that some of the harmful behaviors (we associate with PTSD) weren't socially abhorrent, in past eras.

eg: Societies generally condone some amount of mistreating other people. That particular outlet could have been fully acceptable, when done to marginal and lesser classes.

Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by marcus_holmes on Monday April 27, 2020 @11:23AM (#22996693)
totally agree. Beating your wife as a method of controlling your PTSD was socially acceptable then. Now, not so much.
Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by harimau777 on Monday April 27, 2020 @10:57AM (#22996431)
It seems to me that death in WW1 and later might be experienced as much more arbitrary. Instead of engaging in hand to hand combat with an enemy they can see, a shell just falls out of the sky and someone happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I suppose there could also be a sense in which, depending on the culture, a death in hand to hand combat might be viewed as glorious in a way that getting shot by a sniper or blown up by artillery wouldn't be.

Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by raverbashing on Monday April 27, 2020 @11:44AM (#22996923)
Yeah I was thinking about the technology as well

WWI had the technology to be profoundly violent. Ok, there were cannons in ships and in the Civil War for example, but I suspect that WWI (and later wars) had a bigger technological dependency.

Technologies that are loud, flashy and destructive: tanks, bombs, machine guns, grenades, etc.

Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by dsfyu404ed on Monday April 27, 2020 @11:42AM (#22996896)
>But then, if every woman has gone through multiple stillbirths, child deaths, and so on, then everyone is going to be messed up. What they'd consider "normal" is what we'd consider as "struggling with deep trauma".

>I think you're right - everyone would be traumatised by modern standards.

But if everybody is traumatized then nobody is, it's the local normal. Sure we can say they were "wrong" but that's just a reflection of our current cultural norms. What is right and wrong or traumatic or not is a matter of cultural norms and social consensus. The reason we give a crap over whether or not people are traumatized is because it makes them "messed up" and affects their ability to function normally in society. If people are able to function normally in society, are not "messed up" according to the people around them and don't consider themselves traumatized are they really traumatized?

It's really easy to sit in an air conditioned office and say the past was horrible but it's only horrible because we have a different frame of reference. For the people who lived it it was just how things are. I think it's kind of paternalistic to say the people of the past were all/mostly traumatized because it's not like they had any other options, the things they had to experience were unavoidable facts of life.

Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by marcus_holmes on Monday April 27, 2020 @04:24PM (#22999606)
Yes. I think that's the point. No-one commented on it, because no-one considered themselves traumatised. It was normal.
Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by daddylonglegs on Monday April 27, 2020 @12:42PM (#22997456)
> I would like to raise a frame challenge: what if instead trauma was ubiquitous?

I agree. I think that a society with high infant mortality would (will?) look traumatised (to the extent of seeming alien) to those of us raised with very safe childhoods.

As evidence I would offer "Death without Weeping" by Nancy Scheper-Hughes, who spent years working in shanty towns in the 1960s and wrote a book. http://www3.gettysburg.edu/~dperry/Class%20Readings%20Scanne...

> WW1 was in some ways unique in that the West had experienced a long period of peace. There were colonial occupations and thousands of troops dying overseas, mostly of disease, but not in Europe itself.

Yes, also some of the comments to the blog post point out that the experience in WW I was new with prolonged periods of exposure to sudden dangers that emphasized the helplessness of the soldiers (descriptions of artillery bombardments often mention this helplessness). Others have mentioned the effects of concussive injuries and the huge scale of the war thanks to modern logistics. The US civil war (50 years previously) had some of the technological elements and scale of WWI but I don't think anyone in Europe was prepared for what was to come.

Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by ThrowawayR2 on Monday April 27, 2020 @09:44AM (#22995721)
> "People would refuse to show PTSD symptoms under the threat of violence."

Doesn't the plight of homeless veterans today demonstrate that PTSD and mental illness is not something that can be easily hidden, even under threat of violence?

Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by pjc50 on Monday April 27, 2020 @09:52AM (#22995801)
Homelessness is an effective way of hiding the symptoms at the cost of hiding the whole human from society. How many homeless lives are in the historical record? To the extent that they are referenced at all, they will appear as beggars in the background of some wider historical event.

You can beat symptoms out of someone if you don't care whether they survive the process. Then you have no people with visible symptoms around cluttering up the place.

Re:Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? by ThrowawayR2 on Monday April 27, 2020 @10:09AM (#22995952)
But that goes back to the author's point: some mention of many beaten-to-death veterans would've received mention in ancient works but doesn't. And that's setting aside the idea that beating up a veteran who's primary combat skill was close combat, unlike modern veterans, was something easily done.